S/PV.900 Security Council

At previous meetings on this subject the Council agreed to extend invitations to participate in its discussions to the representatives of Yugoslavia, Indonesia, Ghana, Guinea andMorocco. As there is 110 objection, I invite the representatives of the aforementioned countries to take seats at the Council table. At the invitation of the President. Mr. Quaison- Sackey (Ghana), Mr. Caba (Guinea), Mr. Wirjopranoto (Indonesia), Mr. Aboud(Morocco)andMr. Vidic(Yugo- slavia) took places at the Security Council table. President: M. E. ORTONA (Italie). Presents: Les representants des Etats suivants: Argentine, Ceylan, Chine, Equateur, Etats-Unis d'Ameriqu~, France, Italie, Pologne, Royaume-Uni de Grande-Bretagne et d'Irlande du Nord, Tunisie, Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques. -Ordre du jour provisoire (SIAgenda/900) 1. Adoption de l'ordre du jour. 2. Lettre, en date du 13 juillet 1960, adressee par le Secretaire general au President du Conseil de securite (S/4381): quatri~me rapport duSecretaire general sur la mise en application des resolutions S/4387 du 14 juillet 1960, S/4405 du 22 juillet 1960 et S/4426 du 9 aoQt 1960 du Conseil de securite (S/4482 et Add.1 a 3); lettre, en date du 8 septembre 1960, adressee au President du Conseil de securite par le representant per- manent de la Yougoslavie aupr~s de l'Organi- sation des Nations Unies (S/4485); lettre, en date du 12 septembre 1960, adressee au Pre- sident du Conseil de securite par le representant de 1'Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques (S/4506). Adotltion de I'ordre du jour L'ordre du jour est adopt~. Lettre, en date du 13 juillet 1960, adressee par le Secretaire general au President du Conseil de securite I(S/4381): quafriemerapportdu Secritaire general sur la mise en appUcatian -des resolutions SI4387 du 14 juillet 1960, S/4405 du 22 juillet 1960 etS/4426 du 9 Qout 1960du Conseil de securHe (S/4482 et Add.1 a3); letfre,'en dote du 8 septembre 1960, adressee au President du Conseil de securitepar ie representant permanent de laYougoslavie aupres de l'Organisation des Nations Unies(S/4485); lettre, en date du 12 septernbre 1960,adressee au Pre- sident duCpl:1seil de securite par le representant de l'Union des Republiques socialistes sovil!tiques-(S/4506) - . - I. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de Panglais): Lors des seances precedentes consacrees a la m~me question, le Conseil a decide d'inviter les representants de la Yougoslavie, de l'Indonesie, du Ghana, de la Guinee et du Maroc il prendre part au debate S'il n'y a pas d'opposition j'inviterai les representants de ces pays il prendre place a la table du Conseil. Sur l'invitation du President, M. Quaison-Sackey (Ghana), M. Caba .(Guinee), M. Wirjopranoto (Indone- sie), M: Aboud (Mar-oc) et M. Vidi6 (Yougoslavie) prennent place ala table du Conseil. 4. For these reasons, therefore, I still feel that the existing practice of the security Council in this re- spect is a sound one andshouldbe impartially followed now and in the future.

In view of the Soviet representative's observations, I do not wish there to be any doubt concerning the pur- port of the statement I made at the last meeting with regard to the question of admitting the representative of Guinea to this debate. The representative ofGuinea' wishes to speakon a matter whichis in my delegation's view within the exclusive competence of the eleven members of the Council. In taking this view we are not discriminating against anyone. I had the impres- sion this morning that the representative ofYugoslavia intended to speak on the substance and not on a ques- tion of procedure. My remarks therefore also apply, retrospectively as it were, to his intervention. The procedural issue is causing us enough difficwtyal- ready, without introducing a question of allegedpoliti- cal discrimination. I would repeat that no thought of political discrimination entered my delegation's mind.

I regret to intervene again, and I wishto saythat I am very much distressed to find myself in disagreement with the point of view put forward by the representative of the United King- dom. But I do wish to make this point. I follow him completely in his observations with regard to the question of permitting Members invitedtothis Cowlcil meeting to participate in the discussion on purely procedural questions, and if that were the only point 3. Ma delegation ne conteste en rien le droit du representant de la Guinee de prendre part a la discussion de la question sur laquelle le Conse.ill'a invite a prendre la parole. Cependant je crois, avec tout le respect que je dois a 1'opinion exprimee par sir Claude Corea que j'ai ecoute avec la plus grande attention, que le fait d'admettre des non-membres a. un debat de procedure cOilStituerait un precedent qui pourrait entrather a·l'avenir une grande confusion. Les questions dont le Conseil a ete recemment saisi l'ont amene a inviter un nombre considerable de non-membres a prendre part a ses debats. Si nous devions deroger a 1'usage etabli, nos deliberations sur les questions de procedure s'en trouveraient prolongees, ce qui aurait pour consequence de re- tarder nos debats sur le fond. En outre, aucune assemblee au monde a ma connaissance ne permet a des non-membres de prendre part a. ses debats de procedure. 4. Pour ces raisoris, je persiste donc a penser que 1'usage suivi par le Conseil de securite en la matiere est sage etqu'ilfaudrait s 'yconformerimpartialement dans le cas present et al'avenir. 5. M. MILLET (France): En raison des observations du representant de l'Union sovietique, je tiens a ne laisser subsister aucun doute quant a la portee de mon intervention a la derniere seance, a propos de l'audition du representant de la Guinee. Celui-ci souhaite prendre la parole sur une question qui, selon ma delegation, rel~ve de la competence exclusive des 11 membres composant le Conseil de securite. Cet avis ne comporte aucune discrimination ll'en- contre de quiconque. J'avais pense que le representant de la Yougoslavle se proposait, ce matin, d'intervenir sur le fond, etnonpoint sur une question de procedure. Mes remarques s'appliquent donc egalement - et, en quelque sorte, retroactivement - al'intervention du representant de la Yougoslavie. Nous avons dej~ suffisamment de difficultes sur une question de procedure sans qu'il soit necessaire, amon avis, dry ajouter une question de pretendue discrimination politique qui, je le repete, n'a jamais effleure l'esprit de ma delegation. 6. Sir Claude COREA (Ceylan) [traduit de l'anglais]: J e regrette de devoir intervenir de nouveau, et je suis tout, a fait desoIa de ne pouvoir -partager Popinion du representant du Royaume-Uni. Mais je tiens abien preclser mon point de vue; je comprends parfaitement ce que sir Patrick Dean a dit a propos de la faculte que les Etats invites ala seance du Conseil auraient ou n'auraient pas de prendre part aux debats de pro- cedure, et, si c'etait la la seule question qui se pose '7. I would, therefore, again suggest veryhumblythat, in the circumstances that have developed, since par- ticipation in a procedural discussion has been per- mitted to one invited Member, the others who desire to do so on this Occasion may be permitted to 1Jartici- pate, without creating a precedent, and registeringthe emphatic opinion that, under our provisional rules of procedure or according to our practice, such partici- pation is not generally allowed and should not be al- lowed in the future; in other words, that this should not be taken as a precedent for future occasions. I think that that could solve the difficulty with which we are faced. That is the point of view which I wanted to present. 8. The PRESIDENT: Members of the Council have heard the various views which have been put forward on the question whether the floor should be given to the representative of Guinea at the present junoture, when a procedural problem is being debated. 7.. Etant donne ce qui slest passe et attendu que nous avons autorise un Etat invite II participer a un debat de procedure, je serais d'avis que les autres Etats qui desirent prendre part aupresent debat soient autorises a le faire sans que ceIa cre0 pour autant un precedent, car il doit ~tre bien entendu que, en vertu du r~gle­ ment interieur provisoire du Conseil de securite et de la pratique, l'autorisation de prendre part a un debat de ce genre n'est. generalement pas aceordee et ne devrait pas I'~tre a l'avenir; autrement dit, il n'y aurait pas la un precedent pour llavenir. Je pense que ce serait le moyen de resoudre la difficult€! actuelle. Telle est du moins l'opinion que je tenais a exprimer. 8. Le PRESIDENT (tradnit de l'anglais): Le Conseil a entendu diverses opinions sur la question de savoir s'il condent de donner la parole au representant de la Guinee dans le present debat de procedure. 9. I must say that the problem which now confro~ts the Chair is intricate and complex. I have in mind the v'arious observations which have been put forward, particularly the remarks just made by Sir Claude Corea. However, the views which have been put for- ward are, in the opinion of the Chair, so strikingly different that I think that the Chair has no choice but to put the question to a vote. Inthis connexion I should like to emphasize very strongly the thoroughly pro- cedural character of this vote. 10. Mr. ZORIN (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated from Russian): It is not quite clear to me from what the President has just said whether there is any formal motion not to permit the representative of Guinea to speak. 9. Je dois avouer que, pour le PreSident, cette question est delicate et complexe. Je desire tenir compte des diverses observations qui ont ete faites ici, en particulier par sir Claude Corea. Cependant les opinions qui ont ete exposees sont si divergentes que la seule solution est, je pense, de mettre la question aux voix. A cet egard, jetiens abien preciser qu'il s'agira d'un vote de pure procedure. 10. M. ZORINE (Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques) {traduit du russe]: Monsieur le President, d'apres ce que vous venez de dire, je ne vois pas tr~s bien s'il existe deja une proposition formelle tendant a refuser la parole au representant de la Guinee. 11. En ecoutant le representfu"1t duRoyaume-Uni,j'ai cru comprendre qu'il est oppose II ce que Pon accorde la parole au representant de la Guinee, mais je ne suis pas certain qu'il ait presente une proposition formelle dans ce sense C'est pourquoi j'aimerais que ce point soit precise avant quevous mettiez la question aux voix; 12. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Pour re- pondre a la question du representant de 1'Union sovietique, je rappelle quIll s'agit de savoir s'il faut ou non entendre le representant de la Guinee au cours du d6bat de proc6dur~. Clest pourquoi j'ai l'intention de mettre aux voix cette question: que ceux·qui sont d'avis d'entendre maintenant le representant de la Guinee veuillent bien lever la main. 11. I understood from the statement by the United Kingdom representative that he was against granting such permission, but I am not quite clear whether he made any formal proposal. I should therefore like the point to be clarified before the question is put to the vote.

In order to clarify the issue raised by the representative of the Soviet Union, I think I should say that the point under discussion is whether or not at the present juncturethe representa- tive of Guinea should be given the floor during this procedural debate. Therefore, I should like to put the question to the vote in the following way: Those in favour of haVing the representative of Guinea take the floor at this juncture, please raise their hands. s&~s tr~s bien que le representant du Royaume-Uni n'a aucune intention de ce genre, pas plus qu'aucun autre membre du Conseil de securit6: cependant nous devons non seulement eviter de faire une distinction, mais aussi eviter d'avoir l'air de la faire. La seule question qui se pose - je ne reviendrai pas la- dessus - est de savoir si,apr~s avoir autorise un Etat non membre du Conseil II participer II un debat de procedure, nous allons refuser ce droit II tm autre Etat.

What the Chair is addressing itself to is a request by the representative of Guinea to have the floor at the present juncture, and it is the responsibility of the Chair to have the proceedings continue as speedily as possible so as to arrive at the substantive part of the debate. The problemunder con- sideration being the request by the representative of Guinea to take the floor at this juncture, the Chair has the responsibility of hearing and interpreting the course of the debate about it. The Chair has also the responsibility of deciding at a certain point what fur- ther step must be taken in order to have the meeting take its normal course. 15. I have, therefore, to restatethat, havingheardthe differing views around thistable, evenwithout a formlll proposal by any of the members, I am bound from the Chair to take a decision on the next course to take, and the next course for me is to take under advice the request of the representative of Guinea to speak. Therefore, the formulation of the vote to be taken, as I put it before, respoilds, in the opinion of the Chair, to the present status of the situation, the formulation being: those who are in favour of this request of the representative of Guinea, please raise their hands.

The procedural situation seems to me to be very clear. When we in- vited to this hble the five representatives of states non-members of the Council we invited them to par- ticipate in the debate. There is no rule of procedure- and I emphasize this-which could forbid or limit the right of speech and the right of participation in the debate in this Council, and I would very much like to hear from any of the three representatives who have invoked the rules oi procedure of the existence of any such rule. 17. Since there is no rule of procedure to limit the right of participation in the debate, then all we can vote on at this moment is the objection raised by the United Kingdom representative and later supportedby the representatives of the United States and France, but I have not heard a proposal to that effect.

I entirely agree with the statement made by the representative of Poland, but should like to add that, since the representative of Guinea has asked to speak, we can<!e.cline his request, if it gives Tise to any objectio~ only by taking a deci- sion to that effect. Objections have been raised by the representatives of the United Kingdom, the United States and France, but those objections, as frequently 14. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): La ques- tion qui nous occupe maintenant est la demande du representant de la Guinee, qui souhaiteraitprendre la parole au cours du present debat, et il appartient au President de faire en sorte que nous puissions aborder la question de fond le plus vite possible. Le Conseil etant en train d'examiner ladite demande du representant de la Guinee, le J:lresident a le devoir de suivre et d'interpreter les opinions expri- mees sur ce point. C'est aussi il. lui de decider jusqu'il. un certain point de la procedure il. suivre pour assurer le deroulement normal de la seance. 15. Je rep~te done qu'apr~s avoir entendu les opi- nions divergentes exprimees au Conseil, m~me si aucun membre n'a presente de proposition formelle., le President doit prendre une decision sur la pro- cedure A sulvre maintenant, c'est-il.-dire, en l'occur- rence, prendre Pavis du Conseil sur la demande formulee par le representant de la Guinee. Par consequent la question mise aux voix correspond, comme je 1'ai deja dit, ~ la situation actuelle: que ceux qui sont d'avis d'entendre maintenant le repre- sentant de la Guinee veuillent bien lever la main. 16. M. LEWANDOWSKI (Pologne) [traduit de l'an- glais]: Pour ce qui est de la procedure, la situation me parai't tr~s claire. Lorsque nous avons invite lr ~ la table du Conseil les representants de cinq Etats non membres du Conseil, nous les avona invites par l~ m~me l prendre part au debat. Aucun article du r~glement - je dis bien aucun ~ ne limite le droit de parole et le droit de participation aux debats du Conseil et je serais tr~s heureux que 1'un des trois representants qui ont invoque le r~glement interieur m'indique l quel article Us peuvent se referer. 17. Puisqu'aucun article du r~glement ne limite la participation au debat, la seule question qui puisse atre mise aux voix actuellement est l'objection soulevee par le representant' du Royaume-Uni, et appuyee ensuite par les representants des Etats-Unis et de la France, mais je n'ai entendu aucune propo- sition l cet effete 18. M. ZORINE (Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques) [traduit du russe]: Je voudrais ajouter quelques mots a ce quIa dit le representant de la Pologne, avec lequel je suls enti~rement d'accord: puisque le representant de la Guinee a demande la parole, on ne saurait la lui refuser qu'en vertu d'une decision, s'iI y a des objections. Des objections ont ete elevees par les representants du Royaume- Uni, des Etats-Unis et de la France, mai.!" ces ~ 19. I very much regret thatthe President is assuming a function which is being forced upon him by the lack of courage of the representatives of the countries which have substantive objections to hearing a state- IJlent from the representative of Guinea. I regret this, but I do not think the President ought to take such a function upon himself. If the representatives of the United Kingdom, the United8tate8 and France consider that the representative of Guinea should not take part in our discussion-although he has the right to do so and has asked to speak-then let them submit a formal proposal. Otherwise there is no reason for us to take any vote at all. The position is quite straightforward: under the ordinary rules of procedure, the President is obliged to let the representative of Guinea speak in the absence of any formal objection upheld bythe ma- jority of the Security Council. 20•. Le PRESIDENT (traduitdel'anglais):J'aientenc1U1 les interventions des representants de la 'Pologne et de l'Union sovietique. A mon sens, elles n'aident pas a resoudre le probl~me mais ne font qu1en confirmer la complexite et la difficulte. Comme je l'ai deja dit, la presidence est aux prises avec une question de procedure compliquee: si, comme l'a dit le representant de 1'Union sovietique, certains repre- sentants ont souleve - sans toutefois le faire sous la forme d'une proposition formelle - une objection con- tre l'octroi au representant de la Guinee de l'auto- risation de prendre la parole, il n'en reste pas moins que le representant de I'Union sovietique a lui-m@me demande ce matin, pour citer ses propres termes, que "le representant de la Guinee soit invite A participer A la discussion de la question dont le Conseil est saisi" [899~me s~ance; par. 67]. 21. Je pense que, lorsque je dis que la procedure de vote a suivre est de demander aux membres du Conseil s'ils sont partisans de donner la parole au representant de la Guinee, je ne fais que reprendre les termes m~mes employes ce matin par le repre- sentant de 1'Union sovietique.

I have heard the statements of the representatives of Poland and of the Soviet Union. I think that they do not'add to the solution of the prob- lem because they only confirm the intricacies and complexities. As I stated before, the Chair is con- fronted by a question which is procedurally compli- cated because if on one side, as the Soviet Union representative put it, certain representatives-not formally, however-have raised objections to giving the representative of Guinea the floor, on the other side, the representative of the Soviet Union himself requested, and I qUC'4-'j his statement of this morning, that "the representative of the Republic of Guinea should be invited to speak on the question now before us" [899th meetlng, para. 67]. 21. I think, when I say that the way to put the vote is to ask the members of the Council to state whether they are in favour of having tlie representative of Guinea take the floor, I simply reflect the very terms of the statement of the representative of the Soviet Union which was made this morning. 22. I therefore confirm that I will put the question to the vote as follows: Those in favour of having the representative of Guinea take the floor at this juncture, please raise their hands. 23. Mr. ZORIN (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated from Russian): The President has spoken of the "intricacies and complexities" of the problem before him. It seems to me that it is he himself who has created these intricacies and complexitiesbecause ~tre refusee au representant de la Guinee, qu'ils presentent· une proposition formelle dans ce sens. S'ils craignent qu'une telle proposition ne soit pas bien accueillie, qu'ils le disent franchement. Mais on ne peut gu~re, me semble-t-il, exprimer simple- ment l'avis qu'il ne serait pas souhaitable que la Guinee participe a la discussion, pour s'abstenir ensuite de presenter une proposition et chercher a rejeter la responsabilite sur le President. 19. J e regrette beaucoup que le President assume une ta.che dont il doit s'acquitter en raison du manque de courage dont font preuve les representants des pays qui s'opposent quant au fond a ce que le repre- sentant de la Guinee se fasse entendre.Jele regrette, mais je pense que le President ne doit pas assumer cette responsabilite. Si les representants duRoyaume- Uni, des Etats-Unis et de la France jugent que le representant de la Guinee ne doit pas participer a notre discussion, alors qu'il en a le droit et qu'il a demande la parole, 9!l'Us presentent une propo- sition formelle dans ce sens. Sans quoi~ il n'y ~ aucune raison pour que nous votions, et conforme- ment au r~glement interieur vous @tes tenu de lui donner la parole puisque personne ne s 'y est oppose en presentant une proposition appuyee par la majo- rite des membres du Conseil. 22. Je confirme donc que je vais mettre aux voix la question sous la forme suivante: que ceux qui s'ont d'avis que le representant de la Guinee prenne la parole maintenant veuillent bien lever la main. 23. M. ZORINE (Union des Republiques socialistes soYietiques) [traduit du russe]: Monsieur le Presi- dent, vous avez parle de la complexite et de la difficulte de la question qui se pose a vous actuel- lement. n me semble que vous avez cre~ vous-m~me 24. Under the rules of procedure, all those invited to take part in meetings of the Security Council have the right to speak on any question. The rules of pro- cedure do not provide for any restrictions inthis mat- ter. Rule 37 states that they may participate in the discussion of any question. This means that if the representative of Guinea has asked to speak. then, according to the rules of procedure, the President must allow him to do so; there is nothing complex in that. 25. But the President says that the representatives of some States-the United Kingdom. the UnitedStates and France-have expressed objections. I agree they have expressed their opinion. but they are not request- ing a vote on a proposal that the representative of Guinea should not be allowed to speak. Hence the operative rule of procedure is the one under which the Ioresident permits a statement to be made by the representative of any Member of the United Nations who has .asked to speak. 26. The President also said that I. as representative of the Soviet Union, have expressed the view that the representative of Guinea should be allowed to speak and that he proposes to formulate the question and put it to the vote on the basis of my view. 27. But is there any reason why I shouldnot criticize the attitude of other members of the Security Council who are objecting-in my view, unjustifiably-to allow- ing the representative of Guinea to speak? Just as any other member of the Security Council-just as, among others. the representatives of the United Kingdom. the United States and France-I expressed my view onthis point with the idea that it might have some influence on their own ultimate decision. 28. I did so in the hope that theywould not press their proposal that the representative of Guinea should not be allowed to speak. And I can now say that since they are not introducing a proposal that the representative of Guinea should not be allowed to speak, they are not insisting upon their view; in other words, all our re- marks (my own and those of the representatives of Poland and Ceylon) have apparently had some effect on them. 29. There are therefore no grounds for concluding that my statement shoUld be translated into a pro- posal: I have not yet made any formal proposal. 30. LYl these circumstances it seems to me that it is the President's simple duty to observe the rules of procedure and not to try and create new rules. Under the rules of procedure someone has asked him for permission to make a statement; no one has made a formal proposal that such permission should not be granted; hence he is obliged to grant it. since no for- mal objectioJs have beenraised. Any ofus can express 24. En realite. d'aprE!ls le rE!lglement interieur, tous ceux qui sont invites a prendre part aux seances du Conseil ont le droit d'intervenir surtoutequestion. Le rE!lglement interieur ne prevoit pas de restriction a cet egard. L'article 37 parle de la participation a la discussion de toute question. Donc, si le repre- sentant de la Guinee a demande la parole.• vous devez la lui accorder conformement au rE!lglement interieur. Il n'y a la aucune cO:qJ.plication. 25. Mais YOUS dites: "Les representants de certains pays -le Royaume-Uni,lesEtats-Unis etlaFrance - ont eleve des objections." Fort bien, Us ont exprime leur avis. mais ils n'ont pas demandeque la question soit mise aux voix. Donc. la disposition d'apr~s laquelle le President donne la parole a tout Membre de I'Organisation qui la demande s'applique en 1'0c- currence. r 26. Vous dites, en outre. Monsieur le President, qu'en ma qualite de representant de I'Union sovie- tique j'ai exprime l'opinion que la parole doit @tre accordee au representant de la Guinee, et vous voulez formuler la question dans ce sens pour qu'elle eoit mise aux voix sur la base de mon opinion. ~ frI 27. Mals pourquoi ne puis-je pas intervenir pour critiquer la position des autres membres du Conseil de securite qui, a mon avis, s'opposent de faQon injustifiee a ce que 1'on accorde la parole au repre- sentant de la Guinee? Comme tout autre membre du Conseil de securite, notamment les representants du Royaume-Uni, des Etats-Unis et de la France, j'ai exprime mon opinion sur cette question, comptant influencer ainsi la decision qu'ils prendraient ulte- rieurement. 28. J.'ai expose mon pointde vue dans l'espoir que ces representants n'insisteraient pas sur leurproposition de refuser laparole au representant de laGuinee. Et je puis dire maintenant: puisqu'ils ne presentent pas de proposition tendant a ce que l'on n'accorde pas la parole au representant de la Guinee, c'est qu'ils n'insistent pas pour faire prevaloir leuropinion,c'est donc qu'apparemment tout ce qui a ete dit - parmoi- m@me et par les representants de la Pologne et de Ceylan - a eu quelque effete f. 29. n n'y a donc aucune raison de conclure que ma declaration doive devenir une propositionformelle.Je n'ai pas jusqu'ici presente de proposition formelle. 30. Dans ces conditions 11 me semble. Monsieur le President. que vous ~tes tenu d'appliquer le r~gle­ ment interieur et de ne pas chercher a en etablir un nouveau. Or, conformement au r~glementinterieur, on vous a demande la parole et personne ne presente de proposition formelle tendant a larefuser; vous ~tes donc oblige de faire droitacettedemandepuisqu'il n'y a pas d'objection formelle. D'autre part.il estloisible 31. As no one has formally submitted a proposal, the President is required by the rules of procedure to allow the representative of Guinea to speak.

Rule 37 has frequentlybeen invoked in the proceedings of the Security Council, and therefore it has frequently been interpreted and acted upon. The phraseology of this rule, "any ques- tion brought before the Security Council", has in- invariably been interpreted to mean any substantive question or matter. I have been in this Council for some fourteen years and I know of no exception to that interpretation. Non-members of this Councilhave never participated in discussions on procedure, such as what delegations should be invited to participate in the debate, when the Council should meet, when the Council should adjourn or when the Council should next meet. The debate on all such procedural ques- tions is limited to the regular members ofthe Council. 33. The question which the President faces couldhave beer! settled easily by a ruling from the Chair. How- e'ver, since the President noted that there was some division of o:pinion in the Council, out of courtesy he asked the mElmbers for an expression of opinion and objections were raised. Even at this point it is open to the President to make a ruling. However, if he per- sists as a matter of courtesy in consult.ing the mem- bers of the Council, he has a perfect right to put the matter to the vote, and that vote is to be taken ai3 a matter of advice to the President in order that he may determine where the majority of the Council stand. 34. It appears to me that we have debated this ques- tion long enough. The President can either rule on it or put it to the vote, as he himself has proposed.

In reply to the representative of the Soviet Union, I would like to assure him em- phatically that I have not looked for the complexities myself. Unfortunately, it is the questionwhich is com- plex and intricate, and because of that I had to solicit the cpinions of the various members aroundthis Coun- cil table. This also a.nswers, I think, the comment made by the representative of China when he kindly said that I could have stated a ruling, and that it was out of courtesy that I askedfor the opinion of the mem- bers of the Council. 36. To go back to our problem, I want to restate that the opinions differed. Therefore, I have no other choice than to go to a vote. In proceeding to a vote, I have to be guided by the character of the question as governed by the actual circumstances, Which is a requestby the representative of the Republic of Guinea to be given the floor now. 37. I would add that in listening to all the various opinions, I never heard the word "formally" but once, which was from the representative of the Soviet Union who stated-and I quote again-that his delegation "formally requests that the representative of the Re- 31. Personne n'apresenteicidepropositionformeUe. Done, conformement au r~glement interieur, vous devez donner la parole au representant de la Guinee. 32. M. TSIANG (Chine) [traduitdel'anglais]: L'article 37 du r~glement interieur provisoire a ete frequem- ment invoque lors des debats du Conseil de securite et a par consequentfait 1'objetde nombreuses interpre- tations et applications. Les termes de cet article: ·"toute question soumise au Conseil de securite" ont ete invariablement interpretes comme se rapportant a. des questions de fond. Je si~ge au Conseil de secu- riM depuis quelque 14 ans et je ne connais aumme exception a cette interpretation. Les delegations non membres du Conseil n'ont jamais particlpe aux discussions de procedure lorsque le Conseil, par exemple, examinait qui il devrait inviter a. participer aux debats, quand il devrait seTeunir, quand i1 devrait lever la seance ou quand il devrait tern.r la seance suivante. Ne peuv~nt prendre part aux deliberations de cette nature que les membres du Conseil. 33. n el1t ete facile au President de trancher la question en statuant lui-m~me. Cepemdant, ayant note que 1'opinion du Conseil etaitpartagee, il a, par simple courtoisie, demande aux membres duConseild'expri- mer leur avis et des objections ont ete soulevees. M~me maintenant i1 est toujours loisible au President de statueI'. Cependant, s'iI persiste par courtoisie a. consulter les membres du Conseil, 11 a parfaitement le droit de mettre la question aux voix, et le vote aura alors le caract~re d'un avis donn6 au Pr6sident pour permettre a. celui-ci de d6terminer de quel cOt6 penche la majorite du Conseil. 34. n me semble que cette question a ete debattue assez longtemps et que le President peut soit statueI', soit mettre la question aux voix, ainsi que lui-m~me l'a propose. 35. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Enreponse au representant de l'Union sovietique, je tiens a lui donner formellement l'assurance que je n'ai pas moi-meme recherche la complexite dans cette aifaire. Il s'agit malheureusement en fait d'une questioncom- plexe et delicate, et c'est pour cela qu'iI m'a faUu demander I'avis des differents membres du Consei!. Je crois que, ce faisant, je reponds egalement aux observations du representant de la Chine, qui a bien voulu dire que j'aurais pu resoudre la question en statuant et que je n'avais consulte les membres du Conseil que par courtoisie. 36. Pour en revenir ala question, jetiensa rappeler que les avis etaient divergents. Je n'avais done d'autre choix que de recourir il. un vote. En mettant la question aux voix, je dois tenir compte de la nature des faits et des circonstances: jeveuxdire qu'il s'agit d'une demande du repr6sentant de la R6publique de Guinee, qui desire prendre la parolemaintenant. 37. J'ajouterai qu'en ecoutant les membres du Con- seil, je n'ai entendu qu'une fois lemot "formeUement" et ce de la bouche du representant de 1'Union sovie- tique, lorsqu'il a declare - pour le citeI' a nouveau- qu'il "demande formellement que le representant de A vote was taken by show of hands. In favour: Ceylon, Poland, Tunisia, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Against: China, France, Italy, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, United states of America. Abstaining: Argentina, Ecuador. The result of the vote was 4 in favour, 5 against, and 2 abstentions. The motion was rejected.

Very briefly, in explanation of vote. It may have been noted that I did not takepart inthe last series of inter- ventions as to the rulings and so forth which were made by you, Mr. President, but, of course, it may be noted tliat I agreed very thoroughly with your rul- ing. I voted against this particular motion, as I said earlier in the day, not through any sense of discour- tesy or discrimination against either the represen- tative of Guinea or his country, but because my delegation firmly believes, in common with several other delegations here, that the question of discussion on the part of non-members of procedural questions is something to be avoided. 40. As has been pointed out by the real veteran of this group-a veteran of over fourteen years-it has never been done before. I also wish, on behalf of my delegation, to reject categorically the unwarranted conclusion reached by the representative of the Soviet Union to the effect that there must be some discrimi- natory ideas back of the position of the United States. I would like to have it known that had I known in ad- vance that the representative of Yugoslavia was going to speak on the procedural subject, I would have ob- jected. I did feel, as a matter of courtesy, that I should not break in on him with a point of order, and his speech was, of course, also very short. I hope that now we can move ahead to the business on hand, which has been long over-delayed.

The Soviet delegation wishes to make the following statement concerning the result of the vote on this question. 42. First, the facts show that the taking of a vote on this question was an infringement of the rules of pro- cedure and we regret that the President was a party to it. 43. Secondly, the Security Council did not object to hearing a statement by the representative of Yugo- slavia on the question of inviting representatives from requ~te sous la forme suivante: "Que ceux qui sont d'avis de donner suite a la demande du representant de la Republique de Guinee, qui souhaite prendre la parole maintenant, veuillent bien lever la main.It Telle est ma decision presidentielle et nous allons maintenant passer au vote. nest procede au vote amain levee. Votent pour: Ceylan, Pologne, Tunisie, Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques. Votent contre: Chine, France, Italie, Royaume-Uni de Grande..Bretagne et d'Irlande du Nord, Etats-Unis d'Amerique. S'abstiennent: Argentine, Equateur. n y a 4 vobe pour. 5 vobe contre et 2 abstentions. La 'proposition est rejetee. 39. M. WADSWORTH (Etats-Unis d'Amerique) [traduit de l'anglais]: Je voudrais bri~Yementexpli- quer mon vote. Les membres du Conseil ont sans doute constate que je n'avais pas pris part ~ la derni~re serie d'echanges de vues relative aux deci- sions et autres interventions presidentielles, encore que je fusse fonci~rement d!accord avec la decision dn President. Si j'ai vote contre la motion, ce n'est aucunement, comme j'ai deja eu l'occasion de le dire aujourd'hui, par manque de courtoisie ou par discri- mination a l'egard soit du representant de la Guinee soit de son pays, mais simplement parce que ma delegation, comme plusieurs autres, est persuadee que la discussion de questions de procedure par des Etats non membres du Conseil est a eviter autant que possible. 40. Comme l'a fait remarquer notre doyen - qui si~ge au Conseil depuis plus de 14 ans - il n'y avait aucun precedent. Je tiens egalement, au nom de ma delegation, arejeter categoriquement la conclusion sans fondement a laquelle est arrive le representant de l'Union sovietique et selon laquelle la position des Etats-Unis s'expliquerait par une arri~re-pensee de discrimination a l'encontre de la Guinee. Je tiens a souligner que, si j'avais su d'avance que le representant de la Yougoslavie allait parler sur la question de procedure, j'aurais formuleune objection. Crest par simple courtoisie que j'ai pense ne pas devoir 1'interrompre enpresentant une motion d'ordre, etant donne surtout la bri~vete de son intervention. J' esp~re que nous allons maintenant pouvoir passer a la question dont nous sommes saisis, C2r nous n'avons que trop tarde. 41. M. ZORINE (Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques) [traduit du russe]: La delegation sovi6- tique tient a faire la declaration suivante au sujet du vote sur cette question. 42. En premier lieu, les faits montrent qp.e ce vote a ete mene en violation du r~glement interieur. Nous regrettons que le President ait participe a cette violation. 43. En deuxi~me lieu, le Conseil ne slest pas oppose a ce que le representant de la Yougoslavie prenne la parole sur la question de 1'invitation a adresser aux 44. I feel therefore that it was clear to all the .members of the Security Council, including the representative of the United States, on what point the representative of Yugoslavia was going to speak. No objections were raised by the representative of the United States, the representative of the United King- dom or the representative of France. But when the question arose of a statement by the representative of Guinea, there were immediate objections. Whatever the representatives of the Western Powers may say, their attitude is one of discrimination against an African State. 45. Thirdly, the vote has shown that therewerethree great Powers against granting the floor to the repre- sentative of Guinea-the United States, the United Kingdom and France; they were joined by the repre- sentative of Italy and also by a representative who represents no one. 45. En troisi~me lieu, le scrutin a montre que trois grandes puissances - les Etats-Unis, le Royaume- Uni et la France - ont vote contre l'octroi de la parole au representant de 1:::. Guinee. Le representant de l'Italie s'est joint ~ elles, de m~me que le repre- sentant qui ne represente personne. 46. On comprend dans ces conditions que les repre- sentants des Etats-Unis, du Royaume-Uni et de la France nlaient pas presente de proposition formelle tendant ~ refuser la parole au representant de la Guinee. Hs se rendaient compte qu'une telle propo- sition ne reunirait pas les sept voix necessaires pour emporter la decision. Voil~ pourquoi Hs ont eu recours ~ Paide du President, et ont fait adopter grace ~ lui une decision tout ~ fait irreguli~re, con- traire au r~glement interieur et qui implique, sur le plan politique, une discrimination aI'egard de Pun des Membres de POrganisation des Nations Unies. 47. La delegation sovietique ne saurait considerer une telle decision comme fondee et en attribue toute ·la responsabilite aux representants des Etats qui sont intervenus contre l'octroi de la parole au representant de la Guinee, mais n'ont pas eu le courage de presenter une proposition a cet effete 48. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Puisque personne ne souhaite plus parler sur ce point, je voudrais dire quelques mots, d'abord. en tant que President, puis en tant que repl'esentant de l'Italie. 49. En tant que President, j'ai ecoute la declaration que vient de faire le representant de 1'Union sovietique. J',estime avoir donne suffisamment d'explications quant aux principes et aux raisons qui m'ont guide au cours de la discussion pour ~tre en droit de considerer que certains propos que le representant de 1'Union sovietique a tenus a mon endroit sont a tout le moins injustifies. 46. It is therefore understandable that the repre- sentatives of the United States, the United Kingdom and France did not introduce a formal motion that the representative of Guinea should not be allowed to speak, as they realized that such a motion would not obtain the seven votes required for its adoption. That is why they resorted to the President's assistance and obtained through him a decision which is com- pletely irregular and inconsistent with the rules of procedure, in fact, a decision which implies political discrimination against a Member ofthe United Nations. 47. The Soviet delegation cannot recognize this deci- sion as correct and lays the blame for it wholly on the representatives of these States which objected to the representative of Guinea being allowed to speak, but which lacked the courage to put forward a pro- posal on the subject. 48. The PRESIDENT: Since I see no other speakers on this point, I should like to say just a few words as President and then a very few words as representative of Italy. 49. As President, I have heard the statement just now made by the representative of the Soviet Union. I feel that I have given enough explanations during the course of this debate about the principles and the reasons which have guided the Chair in these pro- ceedings to allow me to consider certain ofthe refer- ences of the representative of the Soviet Union to my conduct as, to say the least, unwarranted. 50. Speaking now as representative ofITALY, I should like simply to say that the vote that the Council has just taken must be considered, in the opinion of the Italian delegation, as a strictly procedural one con- d~s qu'il a ete question de donner la parole au repre- sentant de la Guinee, on a immediatement trouve des objections. Et, quoi que puissent dire ici les repre- sentants des puissances occidentales, leur position est discriminatoire ~ l'egard d'un Etat africain. 50. Parlant maintenant en qualite de representant de l'ITALIE, je dirai simplement que le vote qui vient d'avoir lieu doit ~tre considere, de 1'avis de la delegation italienne, comme portant uniquement 51. As other representatives have already pointed out, there has been no intention whatsoever, as far as this vote is concerned, t..., discriminate in any man- ner with reference to a particular delegation, and we would be very glad to hear the point of view of the representative of Guinea as soon as practicable during the debate on substance. 52. I hope that, after such a long debate on the pre- vious ~estion, we have not lost track of what was the problem confronting us before we started it. I think we have to go back now to the previous procedural question debated, relating to the invitationto the Coun- cil table of representatives of the Congo. We have heard opinions and even suggestions on the matter, but I should like to go back to that part of the debate to know whether any of the members who have made suggestions intend that these SUgL"6stions should be considered as formal proposals. In fact I have not yet detected any formal proposals to admit one or the other or both or neither of the delegations. I should like, therefore, to invite members of the Council, if any of them- has in mind making a formal proposal, to do so, so that we can proceed with our deliberations.

I should like td speak On a point of clarification. At the end of my statement this morning on the question of the repre- sentatives of the Government of the Republic of the Congo, I said the following, which with your permis- sion I shall quote: "I submit that we proceed to invite to the Council Mr. Kanza, the officially appointed representative of the Central Government of the Re- public of the Congo." [899th meeting, para. 34.] If your feeling, Mr. President, isthatitwasnot a formal proposal, I want to clarify that the Polish delegation would like this proposal to be treated as a formal one. 54. If I might be permitted, I should like to add one or two words on the other question connected with this problem, in connexion with your introductory re- mark to the effect that we now come to the procedural question. My delegation does not treat this question as a procedural one, Bince it concerns and is con- nected with the very substance of the situation in the Congo as it is now. I might addthat the representative of the United states, while suggesting this morning that we should not hear anybody from the Congo and, if I remember his statement correctly, should not lamch into a debate on who represents whom, pointed out, perhaps unwillingly, the very substantive problem that is connected with the question of representation here. 55. The PRESIDENT: The Council now has before it a formal proposal submitted by the representative of Poland to the effect that we should proceed to invite to the Council table-and I quote Mr. Lewandowski I s precise reference-lIMr. Kanza, the officially ap- pointed :representative of the Central Government of the Republic of the Congo, who has, from the beginning 51. Comme l'ont dejA souligne d'autres represen- tant, il n'y a jamais eu la moindre intentiou, en ce qui concerne ce vote, de faire preuve de discrimina- tion envers aucune delegation, et nous serons tr~s heureux d'entendre le representant de la Guinee exposer son point de vue le plus t~t possible au cours du debat sur le fond. 52. J'esp~re qu'apr~s cette longue discussion nous n'avons pas perdu de vue le probl~me qui nous occupait precedemment. J e crois que nous devons maintenant revenir A l'autre question de procedure debattue auparavant, je veux dire l'invitation A la table du Conseil des representants de la Republique du Congo. Nous avons entendu Ace sujet des opinions et m~me des suggestions, mais je voudrais revenir sur cette partie du debat afin de savoir si l'un des membres qui ont presente ces suggestions souhaite qu'elles soient considerees comme des propositions formelles. En fait, je n'ai pas entendu de proposition formelle tendant A inviter l'une ou l'autre des dele- gations, Ales inviter toutes les deux ou An'en inviter aucune. J e voudrais donc demander aux membres du Conseil qui auraient 1'intention de presenter une pro- position formelle de bien vouloir lefaire, de fa90n que nous puissions poursuivre notre discussion. 53. M. LEWANDOWSKI (Pologne) [traduit de l'an- glais]: Je voudrais apporter une precision. A la fin de mon intervention de ce matin sur la question de la representation du Gouvernement de la Republique du Congo, j'ai dit, s'il m'est permis de me citer: "Je r-ecommande d'inviter A la table du Conseil M. Kanza qui a ete nomme representant du Congo au Conseil de s~curit~ par le Gouvernement central de la Republique du Congo." [899~me seance, par. 34.] Si vous estimez, Monsieur le President, que je n'a! pas fait A ce moment-lA de proposition formelle, je precise que la delegation polonaise entend que cette suggestion soit bien consid~r~e comme une propo- sition formelle. 54. Qu'il me soit permis d'ajouter un ou deux mots au sujet de ce que vous venez de dire. Voua avez dit que nous passions maintenant A une question de procedure. Or ma delegation consid~re que cette question, loin d'~tre de procedure, a trait au fond meme de la question du Congo, telle qu'elle se pose maintena.nt. J'ajouterai que le representant des Etats- Unis, en suggerant ce matin que nous n'entendions aucun representant du Congo et, si j'ai bonne me- moire, que nous n'approfondissionli pas la question de savoir qui represente qui, a en fait souligne, peut- etre sans le vouloir, que la question de representation, en l'occurrence, interesse bien le fond de la question examinee. 55. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): LeConseil est saisi d'une proposition formelle du representant de la Pologne, tendant Ainviter - et je reprends les termes du representant de la Pologne - "M. Kanza qui a ete nomme representant du Congo au Conseil de s~curit~ par le Gouvernement central du Congo et qui, d~s le debut du conflit au Congo, a participe 57. It is our view that the question ofthe representa- tion of the Republic of the Congo should not have given rise to any controversy here, because from the outset of the events in the Congo the Security Council has dealt with only one Government, from which it re- ceived a request for assistance to the young African republic; it adopted a decision concerning assistance to and consultations with that Government, requested the Secretary-General of the United Nationsto provide such assistance and to undertake such consultations and subsequently endorsed this position in its further resolutions of 22 July [S/4405] and 9 August [S/4426]. 58. Thus, the Council has already dealt directly with the Gc. ".rernment of the Congo and with its representa- tives here. Why, then, has the question ofrepresenta- tion arisen at this meeting? Whose interests are, in point of fact, served by casting doubt onthe represen- tation of the Government of the Congo in the Security Council? 59. In our opinion, the entire issue has beendeliber- ately contrived by those who are bent on dividing the Republic of the Congo and violating its territorial integrity and political independence. It is precisely those representatives who are suggesting that SOInt\- thing is not clear in the Congo and that there are doubts as to who represents the Congo here. 60. We have no such doubts. From the very start of the discussion of this question we have argued in favour of preserving the territorial integrity of the Congo and of preserving and safeguarding its political independence. We have supported and continue to sup- .port the Central Government of the Congo. We have dealt with the representatives of that Government and we intend to continue to do so. We are further con- firmed in this view by the fact that this Government enjoys the support of the people and Parliament of the Congo, which have repeatedly expressed their con- fidence in this Government and its Prime Minister, Mr. Lumwnba. 61. We believe, in the circumstances, that there is no reason to doubt the competence of the delegation sent here to the Council and we therefore whole- heartedly support the proposal of the Polish repre- sentative that the delegation headed by Mr. Kanza should be invited to take part in the discussion nf the item on Our agenda. 62. A document has just been circulated [8/4514] which has a very important bearing on the settlement ~ ce que j'ai dej~ dit au debut de cette seance et ~ la declaration qu'a faite le representant de la Po- logne. 57. A notre avis, la question de la representation au Conseil du Gouvernement congolais ne devrait nullement ~tre discutee, car, d~s le debut des evene- ments au Congo, le Conseil de securite n'a eu affaire qu'~ un seul gouvernement, au nom duquel il a rec;u la demande d'assistance ~ cette jeune republique africaine, a decide d'aider ce gouverne- " ment, de le consulter et a charge le 8ecretaire general de fournir cette aide et de proceder h ces consultations; il a ensuits confirme cette decision dans ses resolutions du 22 juillet [8/4405] et du 9 aoOt [S/4426]. 58. Ainsi, le Conseil a dej~ eu affaire directement au Gouvernement du Congo et h ses representants lci. Pourquoi la question de la representationa-t-elle ete soulevee ~ la presente seance? Qui a somme toute inter@t h emettre des doutes quant h la representation du Gouvernement congolais au Conseil de securite? 59. Il nous semble que toute cette affaire a ete suscitee artificiellement, et justement par ceux qui cherchent ~ diviser le pays, h violer 1'integrite territoriale et 1'independance politique de la Repu- blique du Congo. Ce sont precisement ces repr6- sentants qui pretendent que quelque chose n'est pas clair au Congo et qu'on ne voit pas clairement qui represente ce pays au Conseil de securite. 60. Quant ~ nous, nous n'avons pas de tels doutes. D~s que la question est entree en discussion, notre position constante a ete de maintenir 1'integrite ~~rritoriale du Congo, de maintenir et d'assurer son independance politique. Nous avons soutenu et nous soutenons toujours le Gouvernement central du Congo; nous avons eu affaire aux representants de ce gou- vernement central et nous avons 1'intention de conti- nuer de traiter avec €lUX. Ce qui renforce notre conviction, c'est que ce gouvernement jouit de 1'appui de la population et do Parlement du Congo, qui ont dej~ plus d'une fois exprime leur confiance ~ ce gouvernement et A. son premier IIlinistre, M. Lumumba. 61. Dans cas conditions, nous ne voyons aucune raison de contester la validite des pouvoirs de la delegation qui a ete envoyee au Conseil de securite. C'est pourquoi nous appuyons enti~rement la proposition du representant de la Pologne tendant ~ inviter cette delegation, conduite par M. Kanza, il. participer ~ l'examen de la question ~ l'ordl'e du jour. 62. On vient de distribuer un document [8/4514] qui presente une grande importance pour la solution 63. In this letter the Minister-Delegate states that the two Legislative Chambers of the Republic of the Congo, convened in extraordinary: session yesterday, Tuesday 13 September, voted full powers to the Gov- ernment presided over by Mr. Patrice Lumumba by 88 votes to 25, with 3 abstentions, andthat at the same session, Parliament declared outlawed any other cen- tral government which might claim to exist in the Republic of the Congo. The Minister-Delegate con- tinues: "Parliament, the sole sovereign organ of the Republic, thus confirmed in an explicit and most conclusive manner its previous vote of confidence in the only Government invested by it on 23 and 24 June 1960. A Parliamentary Committee has been established and isto collaborate withthe Government with a view to the submission to Parliament of a new draft Constitution within eight days. "In accordance with the foregoing, I have received formal and irrevocable instructions from my Gov- ernment and from the Presidents of both Chambers not to participate in the proceedings of the Security Council if it should permit the representatives of an outlawed and illegal government to take places at the Security Council table." 64. I believe that this statement of the Minister- Delegate of the Republic of the Congo is of ~eat im~ portance to us in resolving this question andconfirms the views I expressed earlier.

There is one preliminary remark that I should like to make. In submitting his proposal to the Council, the representative of Poland stated that he regarded his 'proposal as one of sub- stance and not as one of procedure. I beg to record my disagreement with that interpretation of his pro- posal. In this Council proposals to invite non-members of the Council to participate have always been regarded as matters of procedure and not of substance. ·The distinction has a great cons\'\quence. If a motion to invite a non-member to participate in the debate were regarded as a matter of substance, then of course it would be subject to the veto. I do not believe that the Security Council should ever open the possibility of SUbjecting a proposal of that kind to the veto, and I wish that point to be clearly recorded. 66. I come now to the quesHon of the invitation. I should like to state that from the very beginning of the Congo debate my delegation and my Government wished the United Nations to give the people of the Congo the maximum aid possible in restoring peace and order in the Congo and in maintainingthe political independence and territorial integrity of the Republic. That attitude and that wish to give the maximum help to the Congo remains. What I have to say about the invitation has nothing to do with the basic attitude of my Government in that respect. 63. Dans cette lettre, le Ministre deIegue noUB apprend que les deux chambres legislatives de la Republique du c~ngo, reunies en seance extraor- dinaire bier, mardi 13 septembre, ont vote les pleins pouvolrs au gouvernement preside par M. Patrice Lumumba' par 88 voix Pour, 25 voix contre et 3 abstentions et qulau cours de la m~me seance, le Parlement a declare hors la loi tout autre gouver- nement central qui pretendrait exister dans la Re- publique du Congo. La lettre du Ministre del~gue continue en ces termes: "Le Parlement, seul organe souverain de la Republique, a ainsi confirme d'une faQon explicite et tr~s categorique son vote anterieur de confiance au seul gouvernement investi par 1nl les 23 et 24 juin 1960. On a constitue un comite parlementaire qui travaillera d'un commun accord avec legouver- nement pour soumettre dans les huit jours unprojet de nouvelle constitution au Parlement. "Conformement h ce qui prec~de j'ai reQu ordre formel et irrevocable de mon gouvernement et des presidents des deux chambres de ne pas prendre part au Conseil de securite dans le cas oi). ce dernier permettrait A des representants d'un gou- vernement hors-la-loi et illegal de sieger an Conseil de l3ecurite." 64. J'estime que cette declaration du Ministre dele- gue de la Republique du Congo a une grande impor- tance pour le r~glementde cette question au Conseil de securite; elIe confirme la position qu'il m'a ete donne d'exposer precedement. 65. M. TSIANG (Chine) [traduit de l'anglais]: nest une remarque preliminaire que je voudrais faire. En presentant sa proposition au Conseil, le representant de la Pologne a dit qu'il la considerait comme une proposition de fond et non de procedure. Permettez- moi de dire que je ne suis pas d'accord sur cette int~rpretai;ion de la proposition de la Pologne. Au Conseil de securite, les propositions tendant Ainviter des Etats non membres ont toujours ete considerees comme touchant la procedure et non le fond. Cette distinction. est tr~s importante. Si une motion tendant A inviter un Etat non membre A participer aux debats du Conseil etait consideree comme une question de fond, elIe pourrait faire l'objet d'un veto. Je ne pense pas que le Conseil de securite doive jamais exposer des propositions de cette nature Alasanction du veto et c'est lA un point que je tiens ~ bien preciser. 66. Je passe maintenant ~ la question de l'invitatfon. A cet egard, je rappelIerai que, depuis le debut des debats consacres au Congo, ma delegation et mon gouvernement ont souhaite voir 1'0rganisation des Nations Unies apporter au peuple du Congo toute l'aide possible pour le retablissement de la paix et de l'ordre et pour le maintien de l'independance politique et de 1'integrite territoriale de la Repu- blique. Nous avons aujourd'hui la m~me attitude et le m@me desir de donner au Congo toute l'aide possible. Ce que je vais dire au sujet de l'invitation ne modifie en rien l'attitude fondamentale de mon gouvernement a cet egard.

My Government recognized the Government of the Republic of the Congo as soon as it acquired independence, and as far as my Government is concerned nothing has happened to change that position with respect tothe Government of the Congo. 69. We are well aware of the fact that there have been many difficulties. We have heard of changes that have been made with regard to certain parts of the Government. In accordance with the Constitution of the Congo, the Government is made up of several in- stitutions, one of which only is the Prime Minist, " and his Ministers. The Constitution also laid dowll the procedure for the dismissal of Ministers by the Chief of State and the acceptance of Ministers ap- pointed by the Chief of state by Parliament. In ac- cordance with all these constitutional practices, there is nothing which can be claimed as definitely proving that the Prime Minister who was appointed and ac- cepted by Parliament soon after the independence of the Congo has been removed from that office or has been legally, lawfully or constitutionally divested of his position. As a matter of fact, the information we have just received with regard to the joint session of Parliament held yesterday, the House of Repre- sentatives and the Senate, makes it qUite clear that the Prime Minister who was first invested as Prime Minister and who has been in office since the inde- pendence of the Congo obtained a vote of confidence by a very large majority. 70. We have also heard that the .Chief of state ap- pointed another Prime Minister. If that were so, under article 42 of the Congolese Constitution that Prime Minister should have gone before Parliament to obtain ratification of his appointment. Now if a joint session of Parliament was held only yesterday and ifthat new- ly designated person did not go before Parliament, but the Prime Minister who had originallybeen desig- .nated did go before Parliament and did obtain a vote of confidence, assuming that the information given to us is correct, then one wouldpresume that the original position remained and that Parliament has sanctioned the continuation in office of the Prime Minister. 71. In any case, Mr. President, as you yourself re- alize, it is difficult for us to go into these questions thoroughly. When we consider the question of sub- stance we hope to submit some proposals which might enable us to obtain clarification of this matter. The Only question before us now is that the Government of the Republic of the Congo has sent its represen- tatives. The representative designated by that Gov- ernment is also the representative who has been designated as the representative on the Advisory Committee on the Congo. '~ . 68. Sir Claude COREA (Ceylan) [traduitdel'anglais]: Mon gouvernement a reconnu le Gouvernement de la Republique du Congo d~s l'accession de ce pays h l'independance et, i\ son point de vue, rien n'est intervenu qui pulsse lul faire changer d'attitude i\ l'ligard du Gouvernement du Congo. 69. Nous savons parfaitement que des nombreuses difficultes ont surgi. n para1't que des modifications sont intervenues en ce qui concerne certains rouages du gouvernement. Aux termes de la Constitution congolaise, le gouvernement se compose de plusieurs rouages dont 1'un -- et 1'un seulement - est constitue par le premier mimstre et les ministres. La Consti- tution prevoit egalement la procedure de revocation des ministres par le chef de l'Etat et l'acceptation par le Parlement des ministres nommes par le chef de l'Etat. Dans le cadre de ces dispositions constitu- tionnelles, rien ne permet de soutenir que le Premier Ministre, nomme et accepte par le Parlement peu apr~s la proclamation de l'independance du Congo, a 6t6 r6voqu6 ou 16galement et constitutionnellement relev6 de ses fonctions. En fait, les renseignements que nous venons de recevoir sur la seance commune que les deux chambres du Parlement - Chambre des representants et SliD.at - ont tenue ~r-.ier etablissent clairement que le Premier MinJfoii:;:e, {fUi a ete i\ I'origine investi en tant quetel et qui a ete en fonctions depuis 1'independance du Congo, a obtenu un vote de confiance i\ une tr~s forte majorite. 70. Nous avons 6galement appris que le chef de I'Etat avait nomme un autre premier ministre. S'i! en etait ainsi, conformement i\ 1'article42 de la Cons- titution congolaise, ce nouveau premier ministre aurait d1l re presenter devant le Parlement pour obtenir ratification de sa nomination. Or une seance commune du Parlement s'est tenue bier; le premier ministre nouvellement designe ne s'est pas presente devant le Parlement, tandis que le premier ministre designe i\ l'origine s'est, lul, presente et a obtenu un vote de confiance. Si les renseignements qui nous sont parvenus sont exacts, on peut pr6sumer que la situation demeure ce qu'eIle 6tait et que le Parlement a sanctionn6 le maintien en fouctions du Premier Ministre. 71. .ai:n tout etat de cause, ainsi que vous le comprenez, Monsieur le President, i! nous est difficile d'entrer dans le detail de ces questions. Nous esperons que, lorsque nous en Yiendrons i\l'examende la question de fond, nous pourrons saisir le Conseil de certaines pro- positions qui lui permettront d'obtenir des precisions. Un seul fait est a considerer maintenant, c'est que le Gouvernement de la Republique du Congo a envoye ses representants. Le representant que ce gouvernement a designe est egalement celui qu'il a designe pour le representer au Comite consultatif pour le Congo. 73. For these reasons and because my Government recognizes the Government which exists inthe Repub- lic of the Congo, atleastthe Governmentwhich existed at the time of independence when we recognized the Republic of the Congo, I would support theproposal to invite the representative of that Government to par- ticipate in the proceedings of this Council meeting.

I had not intended to intervene again after I had expressed my views on this point in the course of the discussion this morning, but in view of the observa- tions of the representative of Ceylon, whose opinions I always listen to with great respect, I feel bound to explain my delegation's position with regard to the Polish delegation's proposal. 75. My Government believes that in these matters the first factor that must be considered is, as I said in my previous statement, the effectiveness of the authority exercised, and from that point of view alone -and here we are dealing with a question of fact-the I situation is extremely confused, as the reports whic~ we are now receiving prove. My delegation therefore does not believe that it is necessary to consider the questions of law since it is for the Congolese people, and the Congolese people alone, to resolve the ju- ridical problems of legitimacy. 76. Nevertheless, even from the legal point of view the situation is, as my delegation sees it, far from clear. It is an accepted principle that a Government is represented internationally by the Chiefofstate and his representatives or agents. 77. We have all recognized the Republic of the Congo and we recognized it with a Chief of state. I myself had the honour to represent my ')ountry at the inde- pendence celebrations and I presented my credentials to the Chief of state, Mr. Kasawbu. 78. The representative of the Soviet Union also pre- sented his credentials to the Chief of State and his letter, like mine, no doubt said: "My Government will maintain with your Government the best andmost cor- dial relations, now and in the future." 79. That being the case, in this siiuation in which there are twc delegations, one of them bearing an authorizatiqn signed by the Chief of state, the Chief of State to whom the repr~sentativeofthe Soviet Union and I myself, as the representative of Argentina, pre- sented credentials in Leopoldville, the least that we can do, in my view, is to leave open the question of who is exercising lawful authority. 80. I recognize that the Soviet representative is en- titled to his own opinion but I do not see how he can say that there is no problem, that there is. no uncer- tainty, that the situation is clear as crystal. I can but 73. Pour ces raisons, et parce que mon gouverne- ment a reconnu le gouvernement qui existe au Congo - tout au moins le gouvernement qui existait au moment de 1'independance, lorsquenous avons reconnu la R~publique du Congo - j'appuie la proposition tendant a inviter le representant de ce gouvernement a participer aux debats du Conse11. 74•. M. AMADEO (Arg8niin~) [traduit de l'espagnol]: Je ne pensais pas reprendre la parole puisque j'ai expliqu6 mon point de we sur' cette question au cours du debat a la derni~re s~ance; mais les decla- rations que vient de faire le representant de Ceylan, que j'ecoute toujours avec la plus grande attention, m'obligent a preciseI' la position de ma delegation au sUjet du vote qui va avoil' lieu sur la proposition pre- sentee par la delegation de la Pologne. 75. Mon gouvernement estime qu'en de telles mati~­ res 11 est essentiel, comme je l'ai deja dit, de rechercher en premier lieu quelle est Pautorite qui s'exerce effectivement; or de ce seul point de vue, et 11 s'agit d'une question de fait, la situation est extrt}mement confuse, comme le pl'ouvent les nou- velles que nous recevons en ce moment. Ma delega- tion ne pense donc pas qu'll soit indispensable d'exa- miner les questions de droit, car c'est au peuple congolais, et a lui seul, qu'll appartient de resoudre les probl~mes juridiques de legitimite. 76. Cependant, mt}me sur ce plan juridique, madeHi- gation estime que la situation est loin d't}tre claire. Chacun sait que, du point de vue international, ceux qui representent un gou.vernemental'egardde l'etran- gel', ce sont le chef de 1'Etat et ses repr6sentants et agents. 77. Or tous ceux qui ont reconnu la Republiq'.le du Congo 1'ont reconnue avec un chef d'Etat. J'ai eu personnellement 1'honneur de representer mon pays lors des ceremonies de l'independance et j'aipresente mes lettres de creance au chefde l'Etat,M. Kasavubu. 78. Je dois ajouter que le representant de l'Union sovietique a lui aussi presente ses lettres de creance au chef de 1'Etat ainsi qu'une lettre qui etait probable- ment redigee de la m@me faQon que celle dont j'etais moi-mt}me porteur: "Mon gouvernement entretiendra avec le votre les relations les meilleures et les plus cordiales, maintenant et dans I'avenir." 79. Etant donne qu'U en est ainsi et que, d'autre part, nous sommes en presence de deux delegations, dont Pune e~t munie d'une 2.utorisation du chef de 1'Etat, de ce m@me chef de l'Etat auquel le repre- sentant de l'Union sovietique et moi-mt}me, en tant que representant de l'Argentine, avonl:J presente nos lettres de creance a Leopoldville, le moins que nous puissions faire, me semble-t-il, est de nous demander qui exerce l'a:utorite legitime. 80. J'admets que le representant sovietique aft son opinion sur cette question, mais II me paratt difficile qu'u puisse pretendre qu'u n'y a pas de probl~me et que la situation est claire et limpide. En verite, 82. If any delegation submits "\ pToposal on those lines my delegation will be happy to support it but we cannot accept any proposal whether in the form of a substantive or a procedural motion that would involve taking sides in a highly important issue that would have a decisive bearing on any future decision on the problems of the Congo taken by the Council. 82. Si une delegation presentait une proposition dans ce sens, ma delegation serait heureuse de l'appuyer; mais, en attendant, nous ne pouvons accepter d'etre saisis sous forme de motion - interessan.t le fond ou la procedure - d'une proposition qui nous am~n~rait ll. prendre parti dans un probl~me capital, ce qui exercerait ensuite une influence decisive sur toute decision que le Conseil pourrait prendre au sujet des probl~mes du Congo.

We have before us one formal proposal, namely, the proposal which has been put forward by the representative of Poland. I think that we can now proceed to a vote on this proposa.l.

If there are no other speakers on the proposal, withyourpermission, Mr. President, and that of the Council, I should like to make a few remarks. 85. In connexion with what was said by the repre- sentative of Argentina, I should,. like to say that the situation before us is quite clear. We have to decide the question of the invitation to the table of the Securi- ty Council and, according to my delegation's proposal, the invitation should be to the delegation sent by the Central Government of the Republic of the Congo, which delegation is headed by Mr. Kanza. 85. En ce qui concerne les raisons donnees par le representant de l'Argentine, je souhaite souligller que la situation me parail: parfaitement claire. Nous de- vons nous prononcer sur la question de 1'invitation du representant du Congo a la table du Conseii, et la proposition que j'ai faite tend a ce que nous invitions la d~16gationenvoy6e par le Gouvernement central de la Republique du Congo et dirigee par M. Kanza. 86. The representative of Argentina said that the situation in the Congo, from the constitutional point of view, was not clear and that he would be unable to support our proposal. I should like·to point out to him that in the telegram signed by Mr. Kasavubu and Mr. neQ [S!4504/Add.lj it is proposed that the Security Council should consider the acceptance of the repr&- sentative of some other kind of Government; so it is not a question of whether we should decide here just _on a person arriving from the Congo to give us some information for which only he would be responsible, but we have to decide the question of the representa- tion of the Government of the Republic of the Congo. The document to which I have referred claims that the party who would come here would be the proper representative. To this, of course, my delegation ob- jects, and that is why we presented that proposal at the beginning of our discussion. 86. Le representant de l'Argentine a dit quelasitua- tion n'etait pas olaire au Congo au pointde vue consti- tutionnel, et que sa deH~gationne seraitpas en mesure d'appuyer notre proposition. Je voudrais 1ui faire remarquer que, dan·- le teIegramme signe par M. Kasavubu et M. neo (S!4504!Add.lJ, il est propose que le Conseil de securite envisage d'accepter la participation de representants d'un autre gouverne- ment. n ne s'agit pas, par consequent, de decider si nous voulons entendre una personne arrivantduCongo pour nous donner des renseignements dont elIe serait le seul garant, mais de la question de la representa- tion du Gouvernement de la Republique du Congo. D'apr~s le document que je viens de mentionner, c'est le groupe qui va arriver qui representerait vraiment le Congo. Ma delegation n'est pas de cet avis, 'bien entendu, et c'est pourquoi nous avons preaente notre proposition au debut de la discussion. 87. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Nous allons maintenant proceder au vote. Que les repre- sentants qui sont d'avis d'inviter ~ la table du Conseil la qelegation congolaise ayant ~ sa t~te M. Kanza veuillent bien lever la main.

We shall now proceed to the vote. Those in favour of inviting to the Council table the Congolese delegation headed by Mr. Kanza, please raise their hands.

I wish to explain my vote. You may have noticed that I did not speak during theprocedural discussion. How- ever, now that the vote has been taken, I should like to explain briefly why I voted as I did. 89. The problem in the present situation is to decide which of the two Congolese delegations is tobe invited to take part in this debate, and my delegation does not believe that the Security Council has the right to take any decision which might, because of the reasons on which it was based, constitute interference in a constitutional issue, which is wholly within the com- petence of the Republic and people of the Congo. 90. In all conscience I do not think the Council can pass judgement in the matter. It is for this reason that I abstained, without prejudging my Government's position with regard to the substantive issue.

I should also like to explain my vote. My delegation was unable to vote in favour of the Polish proposal submitted to us because it would have implied a de- cision concerning the constitutional problem in the Congo, a matter with which the Security Council does not have to concern itself. My delegation therefore could not support the proposal as submitted.

We are nOw about to embark on the debate on substance. I might perhaps consult the Council. I have four speakers inscribed on my list, and I am completely at the disposal of the Council as to whether we shouldcontinue our debate or adjourn until tomorrow or until tonight. Is there anyparticular wish?

I should like to make a formal motion under rule 33 (2) for the purpose of allowing other members of the Council to indicate their reaction to the suggestion I am about to make, and that suggestion is that we adjourn until a mutually convenient time after dinner this evening.

We have no formal proposal in the way of a motion. We have, however, a proposal. Is there any objection to meeting tonight at, say, 8.30? If there is no objection, I think we could ajourn until 8.30 tonight. 95. Mr. ZORIN (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated fromo Russian): I should like to suggest a minor amendment to your proposal, which is that we should reconvene half an hour earlier, i.e. at 8 p.m., N'ayant pas obtenu le vote affirmatif de 7metnbres, la proposition n'est pas adoptee. 88. M. SLIM (Tunisie): J'ai demande la parole pour une explication de vote. Vous aurez remarque qu'au cours de ce debat de procedure, je me suis abstenu de prendre la parole. Mais maintenant que le vote a eu lieu, je voudrais expliquer bri~vement la po- sition de ma delegation au sujet de la mani~re dont je viens de voter. 89. Etant donne les circonstances dans lesquelles se presente actuellement le probl~me consistant il. decider laquelle des deux delegations congolaises interessees doit ~tre admise il. participer au debat actuel du Conseil, ma delegation ne saurait recon- na1'tre au Conseil de securite le droit de prendre une decision quelconque qui, par les motifs qui 1'inspireraient, pourrait constituer une ingerence dans un probl~me de legalite constitutionnelle qui releve uniquement de la competence de la Repu- blique et du peuple congolais. 90. En toute honnetete, je consid~re que, sur ce point, le Conseil ne saurait porter un jugement quelconque. C'est la raison pour laquelle je me suis abstenu, sans prejuger en aucune mani~re la posi- tion de mon gouvernement quant au fond de la question. 9!. M. MILLET (France): Je desire aussi donner une explication de vote. La delegation francyaise n'a pas pu voter en faveur de la proposition de la delegation polonaise qui, telle qu'elle nous a ete presentee, aurait eu' pour resultat de trancher le probleme constitutionnel du Congo dont le Conseil de securite n'a pas il. se saisir. C'est pourquoi ma delegation n'a pas pu se prononcer affirmativement sur la question telle qu'elle a ete posee. 92. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Nous allons pouvoir aborder le fond. Quatre membres du Conseil ont demande la parole. Je me rangerai il. l'avis du Conseil: souhaite-t-il poursuivre mainte- nant la discussion ou la reprendre demain ou ce soir? Quelqu'un a-t-il un vreu precis a ce sUjet? 93. M. WADSWORTH (Etats-Unis d'Amerique) [tra- duit de l'anglais): J e desire invoquer le deuxieme aUnea de l'article 33 du reglement interieur pro- visoire. Les autres membres du Conseil voudront sans doute donner leur avis sur la proposition suivante: que le Conseil leve maintenant la seance, pour se reunir il. nouveau apres diner, il. une l:.eure qui conviendrait atous. 94. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Nous ne sommes pas saisis d'une motion formelle, mais le representant des Etats-Unis vient de faire une pro- position. S'il n'y a pas d'objection, nous nous reu- nirons ce soir ll. 20 h 30. 95. M. ZORINE (Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques) [traduit du russe): Je me permettrai, Monsieur le President, d'apporter une legere modi- fication il. votre proposition: je suggere que nous r ~~Jb±~

Without prejudging the opinion of the other members of the Council, I would just like to say that a showofdiligence is always commendable, and that I would be prepared to adjourn until eight o'clock. Since I hear no objection, the Council will meet again at 8 p.m. 96. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Sans pr~­ juger l'opinion des autres membres du ConseiI, je dirai seulement que la diligence est toujours souhai- table et je ne demande pas mieux que nous nous reunissions de nouveau ! 20 heures. Comme il n'y a pas d'objection, la prochaine s~ance est fix~e a 20 heures. La s~ance est levee a17 h 50. The meeting rose at 5.50 p.m. GHANA University Bookshop, University College of Ghana, P.O. Box Legon. GREECE.GRECE Kauffmann Bookshop, 2B Stadlon Str..et, Athenes. GUATEMALA Sociedad Econ6mico-Financiera, 6a Av. 14-33, Gualemala City. tiAITI Libralrle "1. la Caravelle", Boite postale 111.B, Port-au·Prlnce. HONDURAS libreria Panamericana, Tegucigalpa. 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'manant de pays ou il n'existe pas encore de deposifai,es pewent atre ad,e"'e. a la Section des ventes et de la dist,ibutian, O,ganisation des Nations Unie., New·Ya,k (Etafs.Uni. d'Am" ,Ique); ou a la Section de. ventes, Organisation des Nations Unie., Palais des Nations, Geneve (Sui..e). 274-40-December 1960-1,775