A/1/PV.64 General Assembly

We can now come to the debate on the report of the Fourth Committee concerning the statement by the Union of South Africa on the outcome of its consultations with the peoples of South West Africa as to the future status of the territory under mandate and the implementation of the wishes thus expressed (annex 76). You have all received copies of the report. If the Rapporteur has any comment to offer, I will gladly give him the floor, but I do not think there is any need to read the report aloud. We can dispense with that formality. Mr. USICKY (Czechoslovakia), Rapporteur (translated from French): The report has been circulated to all the delegations and I think it is unnecessary to read it from the platform.

I call upon Mr. Lannung, representative of Denmark. Mr. LANNUNG (Denmark): The question of the suggested incorporation of South West Africa in the Union of South Africa has lRAK et MEXIQUE." Nous allons voter amain levee sur le texte de cette resolution. Decisiou: La resolution est adoptee al'unanimite. La seance est levee a 13 h. 15. SOIXANTE-QUATRIEME SEANCE PLENIERE Tenue le samedi 14 decembre 1946, a14 h. 30. TABLE DES MATIERES Pages 181. Statut futur du Sud-Ouest Africain. Rapport de la Quatrieme Commission. Resolution 1323 182. Conferences regionales de representants des territoircs non autonomes. Rapport de la Quatrieme Commission. Resolution 1327 183. Transmission des renseignements communiques par Ics Membres en application de l'Article 73e de la Charte. Rapport de la Quatrieme Commission. Resolution 1357 President: M. P.-H. SPAAK (Belgique). 181. Statut futul" du Sucl-OPJest Africoin. Rapport de la Quatrieme Commission. Resolution (documents Aj250, Aj250j Add.l, Aj250j Add.1 jRev.l, Aj250j Add.2l Le PRESIDENT: Nous commen~ons la discussion du rapport de la Quatrieme Commission concernant la declaration de l'Union Sud-Africaine sur le resultat de ses conversations poursuivies avec le peuple du Sud-Guest Africain relativement au statut futur du tcrritoire ~ous mandat et ala suite adonner aux desiderata exprimes (annexe 76). VollS etes en possession de ce document. Si le Rapporteur desire presenter des observations, je lui donnerai volontiers la parole, mais je l1'estinie pas qu'il soit utile de donner lecture du document; nous pouvons nous dispenser de cette formalite. M. LISICKY (Tchecoslovaquie), Rapporteur: Le rapport est entre les mains des representants et j'estime qu'il est inutile de venir en donner lecture a. la tribune. Le PRESIDENT: .Te· donne la parole a M. Lannung, representant du Danemark. M. LA~NUNG (Danemark) (traduit de I'anglais): La question de l'incorporation envisagee du Sud-Guest Africain al'Union Sud-Africaine After some negotiations, the three delegations just mentioned have now agreed to submit to the Assembly a joint text in. the form of an amendment to the resolution submitted by the FO,tlrth Committee. I am grateful to the delegation of India for co-operating in these negotiations. We all hope that the Assembly will adopt this resolution as a conciliatory measure destined to achieve a positive result which is generally acceptable. When considering the proposed resolution, it is in my opinion essential to have a clear view of the purpose and aim to be attained. What do we want to achieve? Our intention should above all be to facilitate the attainment of the best positive practical result from the point of view of fulfilling our wishes with regard to the future status of South West Africa. In the resolution, it is noted with satisfaction that the Union of South Africa, by presenting this matter to the United Nations, has recognized the interest and concern of the United Nations in the matter of the future status of territories now held under mandate. The resolution recalls the provisions of Articles 77 and 79 of the Charter, according to which the trusteeship system shall apply to territories now under mandate, as may be subsequently agreed. It also refers to the Assembly resolution of 9 February 1946, urging the placing under trusteeship of territories under mandate. It expressly invites the Union of South Mrica to propose for the consideration of the Assembly a trusteeship agreement. The resolution expresses the desire that agreement may hereafter be reached regarding the future status of South West Africa and notes that, pending such agreement, the 'Union. will continue to administer the territory in the spirit of the principles laid down in the mandate. . The resolution concludes that the Assembly 15 unable to ac~ede. to the l~corporation ~f South West Afnca In the Umon considering that the African inhabitants of'South West Africa have not yet secured political autonomy or re.ached a stage of political development ena~lmg them to express a considered opinion, which the Assembly could recognize, on such an In drafting this resolution, its sponsors have endeavoured to show fairness and loyalty to all concerned and to reach a text which to us seems clear, unequivocal and well founded. Its present wording leaves, I trust, no doubt as to its real purpose, and is, I believe, constructed on an unassailable legal basis. At the same time we have tried to express ourselves in moderate and cautious tenns. On behalf of the Danish delegation, I recommend that my fellow representatives vote for the amendment as presented by the three delegations. The PRESIDENT (translated from French): r call upon Sir Maharaj Singh, representative of India. Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a Sir Maharaj Singh, representant de l'Inde. Sir Maharaj SINGH (India): The distinguished representative of Denmark has explained the genesis of this resolution. All that I need say is that we are glad to have been able to assist in the framing of the joint resolution. While the conclusions of the Indian resolution appear in the present resolution, our preamble has been altered so as to include the salient points of both resolutions. The r,esolution which is before you is self-explanatory, and the Indian delegation commends it to the General Assembly. Sir Maharaj SINGH (Inde) (traduit de ['anglais): Le distingue representant du Danemark vient d'exposer l'origine de la resolution dont it s'agit. Tout ce qu'il me reste adire, c'est que ma delegation est heureuse d'avoir pu collaborer a. I'elaboration de cette resolution commune. Alors que les conclusions de la resolution de I'Inde figurent dans la resolution qui nous occupe, son preambule a ete modifie afin d'y introduire les points saillants des deux resolutions. La resolution presentee a l'Assemblee est suffisamment explicite, et la delegation de l'Inde la recommande a l'Assemblee generale. Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a M. Dulles, representant des Etats Unis d'Amerique.

I call upon Mr. Dulles, representative of the United States of America. Mr. DULLES (United States of America): This joint resolution is a good illustration of how the processes of this Assembly can bring about harmony. We started out with a statement by the delegation of the Union of South Africa, which reported to this Assembly that on the basis of its information,the peoples of the mandated territory of South West Africa desired to be incorporated into the Union of South Africa. It suggested that this Assembly should approve that step. That South African proposal at once gave rise to sharp and strongly expressed differences of opinion. Most of the Member States here came quickly to feel that this Assembly ought not to accede to that suggestion of the Union of South Africa, but there was much difference of opinion among us as to the legal and practical reasons for that conclusion and as to the terms in which it should be couched. Several proposals were strongly debated. Gradually, as views were exchanged, the differences came to seem less momentous, until now it is possible to put forward a resolution sponsored jointly by States which initially were in disagreement. M. DULLEs (Etats-Unis d'Amerique) (traduit de ['anglais): La presente resolution commune est un excellent exemple de la fa~on dont les debats de l'Assemblee peuvent aboutir a un accord harmonieux. Nous avons debute avec une declaration de la delegation de rUnion - Sud-Africaine qui signalait a l'Assemblee que, d'apres les renseignements qu'elle avait recueillis, les populations du territoire sous mandat du Sud-Quest Africain desiraient etre incorporees dans l'Union Sud-Africaine. Cette 'delegation proposait que l'Assemblee approuvat cette incorporation. La proposition de la delegation sud-africaine provoqua immediatement des divergences d'opinion accusees et exprimees avec force. La plupart des Etats Membres representes id en vinrent tres rapidement a la conclusion que l'AssembIee ne devrait pas accepter la suggestion de I'Union Sud-Africaine, mais il y eut entre les representants des divergences de vue marquees sur les motifs juridiques et pratiques qui etayaient cette conclusion ainsi que sur les termes dans lesque1s elle devait etre formuIee. Plusieurs propositions firent l'objet de vifs debats. A mesure que ces debats se deroulaient, les divergences apparurent moins graves et, aujourd'hui, il est possible de presenter une resolution soutenue en commun par des Etats qui, a1'origine, etaient en desaccord. We believe that this joint resolution constitutes a solution which we can all welcome as a good product of our fellowship here.

I call upon Mr. Forsyth, representative of the Union of South Africa. Mr. FORSYTH (Union of South Mrica): I shall be very brief on the question that is now before the Assembly. The overwhelming majority of the peoples of South West Africa, both European and non~ European, believe that the incorporation of their country into the Union of South Mrica would be in their best political and material interest. They have therefore asked for this incorporation. The South African delegation, at this second part of the first session of the General Assembly of the United Nations, has spared no effort to explain the circumstances which led to the request for incorporation expressed by the peoples of South West Africa and to present the full facts.' The explanation and the full facts are therefore on record and were considered in detail by a committee which, by a two-thirds majority, recommended the adoption of the resolution in rather different terms from the motions now before you. The precise terms of the Sub-Committee's resolution will be found in document A/250, which is before you. On this account, the South African delegation is unable to support either of the draft resolutions. It will therefore abstain from voting on both. The South Mrican delegation will report back to the peoples of South West Africa and will acquaint them with the contents of any resolution passed. For the rest, the Union Government reserves the position'on behalf of the peoples' of South West Africa, as it does its own position as the administering authority. In the meantime, as our leader, the Prime Minister of the Union of South Africa, stated in the Fourth Committee, the Union Government will continue to administer the territory in the spirit of the mandate.

We shall vote now on the resolution as it stands in document A/250. Le PRESIDENT: Je daune la parole a M. Forsyth, representant de I'Union Sud- Africaine. M. FORSYTH (Union Sud-Africaine) (traduit de l'anglais): Je ne m'etendrai pas longtemps sur la question qui occupe actuellement I'Assemblee. Une ecrasante majorite des peuples du Sud- Ouest Africain, tant europeens que non europeens, estime que la meilleure maniere de servir leurs interets politiques et materiels serait d'incorporer leurs territoires a l'Union Sud-Mricaine; elle a donc demande cette incorporation. La delegation de I'Union Sud-Africaine n'a epargne, aucun effort, lors de la deuxieme partie de la premiere session de l'Assemblee generale, pour faire connaltre les circonstances qui ont conduit les peuples du Sud-Ouest Africain a demander l'incorporation de leurs territoires a l'Union Sud-Africaine, et pour exposer les faits dans leur integralite. Les explications qu'elle a donnees, et le complet expose des faits quJelle a fourni, se trouvent done eonsignes dans les comptes rendus et ont ete examines en detail par une Commission c;ui, par un vote a la majorite des deux tiers, a recommande l'adoption d'une resolution dont les termes differaient sensiblement des motions dont l'AssembIee est saisie. Les termes precis de la resolution de la Sous- Commission se trouvent dans le document A/250, que les representants ont sous les yeux. Pour ces motifs, la delegation de l'Union Sud- Africaine ne peut accepter aucun des deux projets de resolution presentes a l'Assemblee; dle s'abstiendra done de voter sur l'un comme sur l'autre. La delegation de l'Union Sud-Africaine rendra compte de son activite aux peuples du Sud- Ouest Africain et leur fera connaitre la teneur de toute resolution qui sera adoptee. Quant au reste, le Gouvemement de l'Union Sud-Africaine reserve la position des peuples du Sud-Quest Africain, au nom de ces peuples, comme il reserve sa propre position en tant qu'autorite chargee de l'administration de ces territoires. En attendant, comme le chef de notre delegation, le Premier Ministre de I'Union Sud-Africaine, l'a declare ala Quatrieme Commission, le Gouvernement de l'Union Sud-Africaine continuera d'administrer le territoire sud-africain seIon l'esprit du mandat qu'il a re~u. Le PRESIDENT: Je vais mettre aux voix la resolution qui figum au document A/250.

'Vc are voting on document A/250/Add.1/ Rev.1. Mr. GROMYKO (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics): It is not clear how many draft resolutions we have--whether one or two. M. GROMYKO (Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques) (traduit de l'anglais): Sommes-nous en presence cl'un Oll de deux projets de resolution? The PRESIDENT (translated from French): Le PRESIDENT: Nous sommes saisis d'une We have only one resolution before us-that seule resolution, contenue dans le document contained in document A/250/Add.l/Rev.l, en- A/250/AddJ /Rev.l, intitule: "Projet de resotitled "Delegations of Denmark, India and the lution presente par les delegations du Danemark, United States: amendment to the resolution des Etats-Unis d'Amerique et de l'Inde: amensubmitted by the Fourth Committee". Its authors dement a. la resolution soumise par la Quatrieme have advocated it from the platform. I take it Commission." I1 a ete defendu ala tribune par that this is the text on which thc Assembly ses auteurs. C'est bien sur ce texte que l'Assemwishes to .v~o~t~e'.'..? .-:.- ---, hUe desire voter? I think it would be wise to vote by roll-call, Je crois qu'il est prudent de proceder a un hecause I do not want to make a mistake in the appel nominal pour Cc vote, car je ne voudrais count. Representatives in favour of the resol~- pas cornmettre nne erreur de denombrement. tion will sa.y "Yes", and those against will say Les representants en faveur de cette resolution L.'~'N~o_":-.--;-----::-:i~C"-;:g~___:t:::;~__:_--1 repondront afIirmativement et les opposants par ~ ~ ~ ~ 'i.--r--~J..t...".... ~ la negative. oJUH ~.b'3,0~.A) f' t:;1'f 2..(5 A vole was taken by roll-call. Le vote a lieu par appel nominal. The PRESIDENT (translated from French): Le PRESIDENT: Voici le resultat du vote: The result of the voting is as follows: V otes' for,' Afghanistan, Argentina, Belgium, Bolivia, Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Guatemala, Honduras, Iceland, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Luxembourg, Mexico, Paraguay, Philippine Republic, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Syria, Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, United States of America, Uruguay, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Venezue1a, Yugoslavia. Abstentions: Australia, Brazil, France, Greece, Netherlands, New Zealand, Turkey, Unian of South Africa, Ucited Kingdom. Decision: The resolution was adopted by thirtv-seven votes, with nine abstentions. Eight M embers were absent. 182. Regional Conferences of Representa~ tives of Non-Self-Governing Territories: Report of the Fourth Committee; resolution (documents A/251 and A/251 / Add.1)

Our next item is the discussion of the report on regional conferences of representatives of Non- Self-Governing Territories (annex 77). I call upon Mr. Lisicky, Rapporteur. Mr. LISICKY (Czechoslovakia), Rapporteur (translated from French): I take it that each Le PRESIDENT: Nous votons sur le document A/250/Add.1/Rev.l. Votent pour: Afghanistan, Argentine, Belgique, Bolivie, Republique socialiste sovietique de Bielorussie, Canada, ChiU, Chine, Colombie, Costa-Rica, Cuba, TcMcoslovaquie, Danemark, Egypte, Salvador, Ethiopie, Guatemala, Honduras, Islande, Inde, Iran, Irak, Liban, Luxembourg, Mexique, Paraguay, Republique des Philippines, Pologne, Arabie saoudite, Suede, Syrie, Republique socialiste sovietique d'Ukraine, Etats-Unis d'Amerique, Uruguay, Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques, Venezuela, Yougoslavie. S'abstiennent: Australie, Bresil, France, Greee, Pays-Bas, Nouvelle-Zelande, Turquie, Union Sud-Africaine, Royaume-Uni. Decision: La resolution est adoptee par trente-sept lJoix; neuf abstentions sont enregistrees; huit M embres, etant absents, n'ont pas pris part au lJote. 182. Conferences regionales de represen~ tants des territoires non autonomes. Rapport de la Quatrieme Commission. Resolution (documents A/251 et 251 / Add.1J Le PRESIDENT: L'ordre du jour appelle la discussiondu rapport sur les conferences regionales de representants des territoires non autonomes (annexe 77). La parole est aM. Lisicky, Rapporteur. M. LISICKY (TcMcoslovaquie), Rapporteur: Je pense que chaque representant a etc ameme

I call upon Mr. Ronmlo, representative of the Philippine Republic. Mr. ROMULO (Philippine Republic): The resolution calling for regional conferences of representatives of Non-Self-Governing Peoples comes before the General Assembly at a propitious moment. On at least three, occasions during this first session of the Assembly, once in London and twice, more recently, in New York, the .United Nations has gone on record as favouring a more enlightened and progressive policy in dealing with racial issues and colonial problems. M. ROMULO (Republique des Philippines) (traduit de l'anglais): C'est a un moment . propice que la resolution prevoyant la convocation de conferences regionales de representants de'territoires non autonomes vient devant I'Assemblee generale. A trois reprises au moins durant cette premiere session de l'Assembh~e, une fois a Londres et deux fois, plus recemment, a New-York, l'Organisation des Nations Unies s'est declaree nettement en faveur d'une politique eclairee et progressive a l'egard des problemes ethniques et des questions coloniales. De l'humble avis de la de1<~gation des Philippines, les Chapitres XI, XII, et XIII constituent la partie essentielle de la Charte des Nations Unies. C'est 18. que l'on retrouve cette sollicitude, empreinte de justice et d'humanite a l'egard du bien-ctre des peuples en etat de dependance, qui est la principale manifestation du reveil de conscience qui s'cst produit dans le monde au lendemain de la guerre. Deja les Chapitr~s XII et XIII, qui visent l'etablissement du Regime de tuteIle et la constitution du Conseil de tutelle, sont en bonne voie d'application. La resolution qui est soumise a I'AssembIee tend a ce qu'il en soit de mcme pour le Chapitre XI, qui traite, d'une fa~on d'ailleurs un peu plus vague, du bien-etre des populations qui ne se gouvernent pas eIles-memes autres que ceIles qui habitcnt les territoires sous tutelle. Cette resolution tend adonner suite, par une mesure logique, a l'action entreprise par I'Assemblee generale en fevrier dernier; l'AssembIee a alors invite, en application du paragraphe e de l'Article 73 de la Charte, les Puissances mandataires a communiquer au Secretaire general des Nations Unies des renseignements sur les territoires non autonomes dont eIles sont responsables. Personne ne peut mettre en doute la valeur des informations en question. D'ailleura, l'Assemblee va bient6t avoir a examiner une proposition deja approuvee en commission, et qui tend a creer un organisme special charge d'utiliser cette importante documentation. Si precieux que puissent ctre les renseignements que les Puissances metropolitaines fourniront, la delegation des Philippines estime indispensable que les peuples non autonomes aient la possibilite de faire connaltre la situation exacte qui regne dans leurs territoires, te1le qu'ils la connaissent, et d'exprimer leurs aspirations. Nous pensons que cela est necessaire, non pas parce que nousavons tendance amettre en doute le bien-fonde des renseignements qui ont ete communiques par les Puissances metropolitaines-nous leur faisons le plus grand creditmais parce que ce serait parfaitement en harmonie avec le principe d'une enqucte impartiale destinee a rassembler' tous les faits perti- In the humble view of the Philippine delegation, Chapters XI, XII and XIII are the. heart of the Charter of the United Nations. Here is to be found the just and humanitarian solicitude for the welfare of the subject peoples which is the principal mark of the reawakened conscience of the post-war world. Chapters XII and XIII, which are concerned with the establishment of the trusteeship system and the Trusteeship Council, are now happily on the way to proper implementation. To perform a similar service with respect to Chapter XI, which is somewhat more vaguely concerned with the well-being of Non-Self-Governing Peoples, other than those inhabiting Trust Territories, is the purpose of the resolution now before the Assembly. The resolution seeks to carry one logical step further the action taken by the General Assembly last February, when it asked the mandatory Powers to submit to the Secretary-General of the United Nations, in accordance with Article 73, paragraph e of the Charter, information on the Non-Sdf-Governing Territories for which they have assumed responsibility. No one can doubt the value· of such information. As a matter of fact, the Assembly will soon consider a proposal already approved in committee to create a special body to process this valuable information. But, however valuable the information provided by the metropolitan Powers may prove to be, the Philippine delegation believes it to be none the less essential that the Non-Sdf-Governing Peoples be given an opportunity to submit the facts in their own lands as they know them, and to voice their own aspirations. We consider this necessary, not because we are inclined to distrust the information submitted by the metropolitan Powers-we have full faith in them-but because it would be in keeping with the principle of dispassionate enquiry to know all the pertinent facts and to secure th'e testimony of various witnesses. In moving the regional resolution on thi,$ sul;>ject, the Philip- Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la· parole a M. Romulo, representant de la Republique des Philippines. In proof of the sincerity of our motive, i shall now reveal that we entered into consultations which resulted in the modification of our original proposal, precisely for the purpose. of accom-' modating the points of view of some of the metropolitan Powers. A1th~ugh we have a certain distaste for the altogether too common tactic of smothering proposals beneath a mass of legalistic formulas, we readily took part in these consultations, in the earnest hope of steering our proposal clear of constitutional objections and of securing for it the consent, if not the support, of the metropolitan Powers. We were all the more willing to do this because we realized that our proposal calls for a novel political experiment in an uncharted field. There may be those who wonder why the Philippine delegation has interested itself so wholeheartedly in this question. The reason is simple. We are asking, for the Non-Self-Governing Peoples today, exactly the same opportunity for self-expression that we Filipinos enjoyed for forty years, in our relations with the United States of America. We are proceeding on the assumption that what was done in our country can and should be done elsewhere, for the sake of the peace, progress and security of the world, and with similar beneficial results. We have seen enough violence in our time to make us hope that the method of conciliation and agreement might replace the method of revolt and revolution in advancing the cause of Non- Self-Governing Peoples. We are solemnly pledged to the first method by our common allegiance to the Charter. We must seek the path of peace which, happily, in this case, is also the path of progress for the dependent peoples and of decent self-respect for the colonial Powers. I should like at this juncture to make an earnest plea· to the metropolitan Powers to take one more step forward from the enlightened position which they took in San Francisco of . their own free will and volition, when they approved Chapter XI of the Charte:.of. the United Nations. I come from the Phihppmes, and we· Filipinos have lived too long under the domination of other nations not to realize that it is not an easy matter for a country to relinquish authority in any degree, anywhere, or to renounce advantages to which it has been accustomed. But the world moves. Life is never static, and there is nothing so expressive of the eternal forward movement of life as the irrepressible depe~dants, .celui du progres, et, pour les Puissances coloniales, celui du respect d'elles-memes. Je voudrais ici adresser un appel pressant aux Puissances metropolitaines et leur demander d'aller plus loin encore qu'elles ne 1'0nt fait a San-Franc'isco ou, temoignant de leur esprit de progres, dIes ont approuve volontairerpent et de leur plein gr~i le Chapi.trc ~~ d~ la Charte des Nations Umes. Je SUlS phlhppm et nous, Philippins, avons trop longtemps vecu sous la domination d'autres nations pour ne pas nous' rendre compte que ce n'est pas chose facile pour un pays que d'abandonner la moindre parcelle de son autorite, ou que ce soit, ou de renoncer aux avantages auxque1s il est habitue. . Mais le monde change; la vie n'est jamais statique, et rien n'exprime d~van~age s~n 6.ternelle marche en avant que 1IrreslStIble Instmct The recent events in India and the Philippines are premonitory of the future course of history in the colonial areas. I am not saying that this course is easy and smooth but when you consider parallel events in Indonesia and in Tndo-China, it would seem that a policy of peaceful and gradual evolution towards selfgovernment and ultimate independence on a fixed date, is one to be preferred to a violent solution by arm~. The declaration regarding Non-Self-Governing Territories is one of the noblest portions of the Charter, and the metropolitan Powers did themselves great honour, in San Francisco, in agreeing to its inclusion. The resolution now before the General Ac;sembly is admittedly in the immediate interest of Non-Sdf-Governing Peoples. But none can honestly deny that, in the long run, it is also in the interest of the metropolitan Powcn; themselves. The Philippine delegation submitted its original resolution on tIus matter in absolute good faith, and in the confidence that the objective to be achieved would receive universal approval. We were not disappointed. Most of the delegations that took part in the discussion, including those of the metropolitan Powers, agreed that it is in the spirit of the Charter to assist the dependent peoples in their progress towards increased well-being and seH-government. There was, it is true, some variance of opinion regarding the method to be employed for the achievement of these ends. One such method is embodied in the resolution now before the General Assembly. Others which have been presented are doubtless worthy of consideration. Our attitude on this question is that we ate primarily interested in seeing this enlightened principle validated by some concrete action, leaving the question of method to the collective goodwill and wisdom of the General Assembly. Our faith in the good judgment of the Assembly is such that we do not believe that it will be deterred, by disagreements on methods of execution, from accepting the central principle of the resolution. Les evenements dont l'Inde et les Philippines ont ere recemment le theatre font presager le cours que prendra l'histoire dans les regions coloniales. Je ne dis pas qu'elle n'y rencontrera ni difficultcs ni obstacles, mais lorsqu'on voit se produire des evenements analogues en Indonesie et en Indochine, il semble qu'une politique d'evolution pacifique et progressive des peuples de ces regions vers l'autonomie et l'independance finale, a une date determince, soit preferable a une solution violente par les armes. La declaration relative aux territoires nOIl autonomes figure parmi les passages les plus nobles de la Charte et, en acceptant son introduction, les Puissances metropolitaines se sont acquises, a San-Francisco, un merite considerable. La resolution d'aujourd'hui est indiscutablement dans I'interet immediat des peuples .non autonomes, mais nul ne, peut contester serieusement qu'en fin de compte, elle doive aussi servir les interets des Puissances metropolitaines elles-memes. C'est en toute bOllne foi que la delegation des Philippines a presente sa resolution primitive sur cette question, et avec la conviction que l'objectif auquel elle tendait serait unanimement approuve. Cet espoir n'a pas ete dec;u. La plupart des delegations' qui ont participe a la discussion, y compris celles des Puissances metropolitaines, ont reconnu qu'il est confonnc al'esprit de la. Charte de faciliter l'evolution des peuples dependants vel'S une prosperite plus grande et vers la capacite a s'administrer euxmcme-,s. Il y a eu, sans doute, quelques divergences d'opinion en cc qui concerne la methode a suivre pour atteindre cet objectif. La resolntion que l'Assemblee generale a devant eUe en propose une qui pourrait etre adoptee. On en a suggere d'autres qui sont certainement dignes cl'examen. Devant un tel probleme, notre attitude est la suivante: cc aquoi nous tenons parclessus tout, c'est a voir le noble principe de la Charte se concretiser dans des mesures determinces; quant a la question de methode, nous nous en remettons a l'esprit de bonne volonte et a la sagesse de l'Assemblee generale. Notre foi dans le sain jugement de cette Assemblee est telIe que nous sommes persuades qu'elle ne laissera pas des divergences sur des questions de methodes de realisation l'empecher d'accepter le principe fondamental de cette resolution. Mr. DULLES (United States of America): The delegation of the United States feels compelled to oppose the pending resolution in its present form. We recognize that, in its purpose, the resolution is laudable, and our Government, in any event, will carry out that purpose. Indeed, at this very minute, we are doing it. The United States has been a pioneer in this matter of regional conferences of Non-Self-Governing Peoples. The first Caribbean Conference demonstrated how much good can be achieved in that way, and we are going to do our best to extend that experiment. In that respect, 1 am wholly in accord with everything that has been said by the distinguished representative of the Philippine Republic. In those circumstances, you may ask why the 'united States opposes the resolution in its present form. It is because the procedure that the resolution would establish seems to us clearly to violate the basic provisions of the Charter. It ignores the basic distinction between the Trust 'Territories dealt with by Chapter XII and the non-trust territories that are dealt with by Chapter XI. You will recall that the Charter recognizes two categories of Non-Self-Governing Territories. One of those categories is Trust Territory, that is territory ~ubject to trusteeship agreements. We have just approved eight such agreements. In the case of those eight Trust Territories-and we hope there will be more-this General Assembly, with the held of the Trusteeship Council, shares authority with the administering Member State as specified in Chapters XII and XIII of the Charter and in the relevant trusteeship agreements. However, there is a second category of Non- Self-Governing Territories: non-trust territories. They are not subject to trusteeship agreem.ents, and they remain part of the national terntory of Member States. According to Chapter XI of the Charter, all Members of the United Nations having territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government, undertake to protect those peoples against abuses and to develop their self-government and free political institutions. That undertaking by Member St.ates expressed in Chapter XI is, as the representative of the Philippines said, one.of the most important, probably even the most l1~por­ tant provision of the Charter. Its scope 1S far greater than that of Chapter XII, which. deals with Trust Territories. Chapter XI. apphes to hundreds of millions of people, whereas the trusteeship system, at least as originally established, applies to about fifteen million people. How- M. DULLES (Etats-Unis d'Amerique) (traduit de l'anglais): La delegation des Etats- Unis se sent dans l'obligation de s'opposer a la resolution sous sa forme presente. L'objet de cette resolution, nous le reconnaissons, est louable, et notre Gouvernement s'appliquera, en tout etat de cause, a le realiser. Que dis-je? 11 s'y applique au moment mcme ou je parle. Dans ce domaine de conferences regionales des peuples non autonomes, les Etats-Unis ant montre la voie. A notre avis, la premiere Conference des Caraibes a prouve l'efficacite de cette methode et nous irons de l'avant dans ce sens, resolus a faire de notre mieux pour poursuivre cette experience. A cet egard, je me rallie sans reserve a tout ce qu'a dit le distingue representant de la Republique des Philippines. Pourquoi donc, me direz-vous, les Etats-Uni! s'opposent-ils, dans ces conditions, ala resolution sous sa forme actuelle? C'est que la procedure que cette resolution tend a etablir nous parait enfreindre manifestement les dispositions fondamentales de la Charte. Elle ne tient aucun compte de la distinction essentielle qui existe entre les territoires sous tutelle vises au Chapitre XII et les territoires non autonomes dont il est question au Chapitre XI. Vous vous rappdez que la Charte 6tablit deux categories de territoires ne s'administrant pas eux-memes. L'une comprend les territoires sous tutelle, c'est-a-dire places sous le Regime des Accords de tutelle. Nous venons preciscment d'approuver huit Accords de ce genre. Pour ces huit territories sous 'tutelle - et nous esperons que ce nombre augmentera - l'Assemblee generale, avec le concours du Conseil de tutelle, partage l'autorite avec l'Etat Membre charge de l'administration conformement aux stipulations des Chapitres XII et XIII de la Charte et aUK Accords de tutelle visant les territoires en question. Mais il 'y a aussi une seconde categorie de territoires qui ne s'administrent pas euxmemes: ce sont les territoires qui ne sont pas places sous le Regime de la tutelle et qui demeurent partie integrante du territoire national d'Etats Membres. En vertu du ChapitreXI de la Charte tout Membre des Nations Unies ayant des territ~ires dont les populations ne s'admistrent pas encore elles-memes s'engage a proteger ces populations contre les abus, a developper leur capacite de s'administrer elles-memes et d'avoir des institutions politiques libres. Cet engagement de la part d'Etats Membres tel que le formule le Chapitre XI constitue, comme l'honorabIe representant des Philippines l'a remarque, une des dispositions Ies plus importantes probablement mcme la disposition la plus , , b importante de la Charte. Sa portee est eaucoup plus v~ste encore que celle du Chapitre XII qui vise les territoires sous tutelle. Le Cha- There are many people who would have liked to extend the trusteeship system and the authority of the General Assembly to all territories where the inhabitants are not yet fully self-governing. That was fully debated at San Francisco, and the decision was against it. It is that decision which is written into the Charter. Therefore, unless Non-Self-Governing Territories, through particular agreements, are brought under the trust~cship system, the United Nations has no authority to intervene in such territories. That authority remains with their own national government. Let me give you a concrete illustration. Among the territories of the United States are Alaska and Hawaii. The peoples of those territories are not as yet fully self-governing, although they are rapidly becoming so. Tpose peoples are not, and will not be, under the trusteeship system. Accordingly, under the Charter, their administration remains, and remains exclusively, with the Government of the United States. This resolution, in its present form, does not recognize that simple fact. It assumes that the United Nations has a right; itself, to implement the provisions of Chapter XI. It instructs the Economic and Social Council, acting jointly and on an equal footing with the governments concerned, to call conferences of l"epresentatives of the Non-Self-Governing Territories. Ceci constitue, a notre avis, une proposition nettement anticonstitutionnelle. Ainsi se trouve repris un des points de la resolution originelle des Philippines que la delegation de ce pays a retranchC elle-meme apres une discussion approfondie, qui s'est poursuivie au sein de notre 8ixieme Commission ou Commission juridique. La Sous-Commission de la Quatrieme Commission a, de son cote, procede a la m~e elimination. That, in our opinion, is clearly unconstitu- , ti~:mal. That. was a~ aspect of ~~e o.riginal PhilippI.ne. resolutIOn whIch .the ~hilippme delegation ehnunated after extenSIVe dIscussion in our Sixth Committee, the Legal Committee. It was also eliminated in the Sub-Committee of the Fourth Committee. The United States, in sub-committee and in Tant a la Sous-Commission qu'a la Commission pIeniere, les Etats-Unis d'Amerique ont chaleureusement appuye la resolution des Philippines, laquelle a ete approuvee a la Sous-Commission, par neuf voix contre trois, puis rejetee en Commission pleniere par dix-sept voix seulement contre quinze, au cours d'une seance de dimanche matin Ott les representants etaient peu f~ll commit!ee, he~tily supported the Philippme resolu.tIon, which was approved in the Sub-CommIttee by a vote of nine to three and rejected in th~ full Committee, by a vote of only seven~een to f~teen, at a poorly attended Sunday mornmg meetmg and under rules which limited debate. That Philippine resolution, which we "Recommends to all Members having or assuming responsibilities for the administration of Non-Self-Governing Territories that the promising steps now being made on a regional basis, particularly in connexion with the holding of regional representative conferences such as in the Caribbean areas, be adopted and developed in other areas in order to give effect to the provisions and the spirit of Chapter XI of the Charter to the end that the traditions, wishes ~nd aspirations of Non-Self- Governing Peoples may be given expression." '!hat is the resolution which we supported and which we would support now if it were before this Assembly. But we cannot support the substitute resolution which is actually before this Assembly, since it ignores the basic Charter distinction between trust territory and national t~rritory and would have this Organization play a governmental role within national territory. This new Organization faces many dangers. Not the least of these is the tendency to usurp authority and disregard the limitations of the Charter, in the hope that in this way desirable ends can be more rapidly achieved. Of course, we want quick realization of the goals of Chapter XI. We want to see everywhere free political institutions. We do not believe, however, that the General Assembly can constitutionally send the Economic and Social Council on a political mission into the national territory of Member States in order to study conditions there, to ascertain the aspirations of the peoples and to convene the inhabitants into political conferences. We do not believe that there is a single Member State here which would accept, for itself, that intrusion and we believe that the attempt of a majority of the Member States to impose such an intrusion upon a minority will not, in fact, achieve the desired ends. . Chapter XI, like many other provisions of the Charter, depends at the present time essentially upon the voluntary action of the Member States. The attempt to substitute the authority of the United Nations for the authority of Member States within their own territory will not, in reality, make the Charter more effective. Al~ ready there is evidence that the present attempt is creating a disposition on the part of the Member States which made the Chapter XI declaration, to restrict, rather than liberalize, the SCOpe of that declaration. Many of us hope that the United Nations will grow in stature and COme to exercise increasing son~ actuellement appliquees sur une. base reglOnale, et dont les resultats sont encourageants, par~culierement en ce qui concerne la convocation de conferences regionales de rep~esentants, comme it en existe dans la reglOn des Caraibes, afin de realiser la lettre et I'esprit du Chapitre XI de la Charte et de permettre ainsi aux traditions, awe s~nti­ ments et aux aspirations des populations non autonomes de s'exprimer." Voila le. te~te que nou~ avons appuye et que nous appUlenons encore SI c'etait ce1ui qui etait soumis a. l'AssembIee. Mais nous ne pouvons nous ralher au texte qui lui a ete substitue tel qu'il nous est actuel1ement presente, etant d~nne que ce texte fait abstraction de la distinction fondamentale etablie par la Charte entre territoire sous tutelle et territoire national, et qu'il tend a amener notre Organisation a jouer un role gouvernemental al'inteneur d'un territoire national. Notre nouvelle Organisation affronte de nombreux dangers, et la tendance a usurper l'autorite et a ne pas se maintenir dans les limites imposees par la Charte daris l'espoir que 1'on pourra ainsi obtenir plus rapidement les resultats desirables, n'est pas le moindre de ces dangers. Bien entendu, nous desirons atteindre rapidement les objectifs du Chapitre XI. Nous voulons voir etablir partout de libres institutions politiques. Nous ne pensons cependant pas que, constitutionnellement, l'AssembIee generale soit autorisee a envoyer le Conseil economique et social en mission politique sur le territoire national des Etats Membres pour y etudier les conditions qui y regnent, determiner les aspirations des habitants et convoquer ceux-ci ades conferences politiques. Nous ne pensons pas qu'il y ait parmi nous un seul Etat Membre qui accepterait pour lui-meme Icette intrusion, et nous pensons qu'une tentative de la majorite des Etats Membres pour l'imposer a la minorite n'aurait pas le resultat souhaite. Le Chapitre XI, comme de nombreuses autres dispositions de la Charte, repose essentie1lement, pour le moment, sur les actes volontaires des Etats Membres. Une tentative faite pour substituer l'autorite des Nations Unies al'autorite des Etats Membres sur leur propre territoire n'aboutirait pas, en fait, aune application plus effective de la Charte. Nous sentons deja que cette tentative est en train de conduire les Etats Membres qui ont fait la declaration du Chapitre XI a reduire, plutot qu'a eIargir, la portee de cette declaration. Nombreux sont ceux qui, parmi nous, esperent que les Nations Unies se developperont et exer- Let ,me repeat. The United States is not afraid of what this resolution would seek. It is, indeed, our action in the Caribbean area which has suggested the contents of this resolution, and, whatever happens to it, the United States will seek to extend the use of regional conferences in relation to Non-Self-Governing Territories. It seems to us, however, that the resolution, in its present form, raises a constitutional issue which is fundamental. We are not here dealing with a matter which is incidental and which involves a choice between equally plausible interpretations of ambiguous Charter provisions. We are here dealing with the fundamental issue of whether this organization can assert, within Member States, a political authority equal to that of the national governments themselves. If it can do so once, it can do so again. And no one can predict the consequences of the precedent we are here invited to set. We can, however, assert with confidence that constitutional limitations are, in the long run, the only defence of a minority against the passions of a majority and the emotion of a moment. Each of us at one time or another may share such passions and such emotions, for we are all human. Each of us at one time or another may be a minority. This Organization will never become what we all hope for it unless there is a determination on the part of all the Members to respect constitutional limitations, even though to do so may in particular cases seem to prevent the rapid attainment of a desired end. We therefore ask this Assembly to reject this resolution, not because we do not agree with its purpose, but because the means chosen violate the Charter and disrupt the basic tie which holds us together.

I e<tll upon Mr. Thomas, representative of the United Kingdom. . Mr. THOMAS (United Kingdom): The representative of the Philippine Republic has spoken most eloquently about the development of Non- Self-Governing Territories towards self-govern~ ment or independence.. He has also spoken about the value of regional conferences. These two matters are now in dispute. I share his point of veiw on that subject, as does the representative of the United States. Indeed, the United Kingdom can claim that it was on its initiative that Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a M. Thomas, representant du Royaume-Uni. M. THOMAS (Royaume-Uni) (traduit de l'anglais) : Le representant de la Republique des Philippines vient de prononcer un discours elo_ quent sur la necessite de conduire al'autonomie. et l'independance les territoires qui ne s'admi_ nistrent pas eux-memes. 11 a egalement parl~ de l'interet que presentent les conferences regio_ nales. ees deux principes ne sont pas contcste~. Comme le representant des Etats-Unis, je par-_ tage son opinion sur ce sujet. En efIet, le. What is at stake now is something rather different, and I would draw the attention of the Assembly to several fundamental objections to the resolution as it now stands which will force us to vote against it, even though we have the most complete sympathy with the aims which led it to be introduced. The first objection arises from the procedure adopted for handling this matter. As originally introduced, the resolution gave rL'>e to certain fundamental objections. For that reason it was referred simultaneously to the Fourth Committee and the Sixth Committee. In the course oI-the discussions in the Sixth Committee, the objections were realized, and the delegation of the Philippines rewrote the resolution and introduced it in another form. In that form my delegation supported it and would be very ready to Sllpport it today if it had come before us. Unfortunately, an amendment was introduced on the proposition of the Soviet Union, and it was also subsequently amended by the Ukrainian delegation: As a result, we have, I am afraid, got ourselves into such a tangle that the only way to deal with it now is to oppose the resolution. I am sorry for thL'>, because I think that in the amended form, as it was reintroduced into the Fourth Committee, the Philippine resolution· would have had considerable value in drawing attention to the regional conferences and the way in which Non-Self-Governing Territories can participate in them. I am sorry, but we have 110W come to a very difficult position with regard to the resolution. The next objection to which I wish to refer is that the resolution, as now drafted, misconceives the state of affairs in Non-Self-Governing Territories. It says in its last words: "in order to give to the peoples of Non-Self-Governing Territories the opportunity of expressing their wishes and aspirations". No one who knows the Non-Self-Governing Territories administered by the· United Kingdom, at any rate, could fail to realize that this completely misconceives the position. There is very complete freedom of expression of opinion in these territories. They have their own legislative councils. In our West Mrican colonies, for example, there is already a majority of unofficial Mrican members on these legislative councils, and, of course, they express their wishes and aspirations very freely. Their wishes and aspirations are expressed to the local government organs. They are expressed through a free Press. I wish that I could have brought some of the West African newspapers written by Mricans for Africans to this Assembly, so that you could see for yourselves. You would have no doubt that they very freely express their wishes and aspirasu~ plusieurs objections fondamentales que souleve la resolution teIle qu'elle est maintenant redigee, et qui nous obligeront a voter contre eIle, bien que nous soyons pleinement en faveur des buts recherches. La premiere objection concerne la procedure adoptee pour traiter ce probleme. Dans sa premiere redaction, la resolution donnait lieu deja a certaines objections de caractere fondamental, en raison desquelles eIle a ete renvoyee simultanement <LUX Quatrieme et Sixir.me Commissions. Lors des debats devant la Sixieme Commission. il a ete tenu compte de nos objections; la delt~gatioll des Philippines a, en consequence, moduie le texte de la resolution. La delegation du Royaume-Uni a approuve cette nouvelle redaction et serait toute prete aappuyer encore aujourd'hui la resolution si elle nous etait presentee sous cette forme. Malheureusement, un amendement a ete introduit sur la proposition de I'Union sovietique, amendement lui-meme moduie par la delegation de l'Ukraine, et cela nous a valu une telle confusion que, je le crains, le seul moyen d'en sortir est de s'opposer ala resolution. J'en suis desole, car, a mon avis, la resolution des Philippines, sous la forme modifiee OU dIe a ete presentee a nouveau ala Quatrieme Commission, aurait eu une valeur considerable du fait qu'elle aurait attite l'attention sur les conferences regionales et sur le mode de participation des territoires non autonomes a ces conferences. J'en suis desole, mais nous nous trouvons, maintenant, a l"egard .de la resolution, dans une position tres difficile. Je veux maintenant parler d'une autre objection: la resolution, dans sa redactiori actuelle, donne une idee fausse de l'etat de choses qui regne dans les territoires non autonomes. Les tout derniers mots de la resolution disent: "dans le but de donner aux populations des territoires non autonomes l'occasion d'exprimer leurs desirs et leurs aspirations". Il n'est, en tout cas, personne qui, connaissant les territoires non autonomes administres par le Royaume-Uni, ne puisse constater l'erreur totale commise dans l'appreciation de la situation. Ces territoires jouissent d'une complete liberte d'expression de leur opinion. lIs possedent leurs propres conseiIs legislatifs. Dans nos colonies de I'Ouest Mricain, par exemple, il existe deja, dans ces conseils legislatUs, une majorite de membres africains qui ne sont pas des fonctionnaires et qui, evidemment, expritnent tres librement leurs vreux et leurs aspirations. Ces vreux et ces aspirations sont presentes aux organismes du gouvernement local. lis sont exprimes par une presse libre. Je voudrais avoir eu la possibilite, a cette Assemblee, de mettre sous vos yeux quelques-uns des joumaux de l'Ouest Africain ecrits par des Mricains pour des Afri- I now pass to a still more serious objection which has been referred to by the representative of the United States. In two very important respects, the resolution as now drafted is incompatible with the Charter. The Charter itself provides no organ for the ~upervision of the application of Chapter XI. If it had been the intention of the authors to provide such an organ, they would have done so, just as they have provided the Trusteeship Council for Chapters XII and XIII. They deliberately did not do so, and it is outside the Charter to try to introduce the Economic and Social Council into the application of Chapter XI, as is now being done. The powers and functions of the Economic and Social Council are defined in Article 62; it is true that paragraph 4 of that Article says that the Economic and Social Council "may call, in .accordance with the rules prescribed by the United Nations, international conferences", but that statement is followed by the words: "on matters falling within its competence". The resolution now before us refers to the peace and security of the world, the political advancement of the peoples of Non-Self-Governing Territories and the opportunity of expressing their wishes and aspirations. These matters, I am afraid, are outside the purview of the Economic and Social Council. I shall deal lastly with the most serious of all these objections. This resolution, as now drafted, is an infringement of Article 2, paragraph 7 of the Charter because it places the Economic and Social Council alongside the govemments of the metropolitan territories, as responsible for calling conferences in territories adminstered by sovereign governments. This is a serious matter, and we must be careful how we deal with the Charter. We must adhere to it in the spirit and in the letter. You can well imagine the scene that would take place in the State Department, or in Downing Street, if a letter were received from the Secretary of the Economic and Social Council saying that he proposed to call a conference of Non-Self-Governing Territories next summer and would be glad if we would arrange for representatives to be present from the Gold Coast or wherever it may be. 11 est facile d'imaginer l'impression causee au State Department, par exemple, ou a Downing Street, ala reception d'une lettre par'laquelle le Secretaire du Conseil economique et social ferait connaitre son intention de convoquer pour l'ete prochain une conference des territoires non autonomes et ou il exprimerait son desir de nous voir prendre des dispositions assurant la presence a cette conference de representants de la Cate de I'Or ou d'autres lieux quels qu'ils soient. In view of these objections, the United Kingd~m delegation must invite other delegations to reject the present' proposal. And in view of the last consideration which I have mentioned more particuhlrly,' the fact that it infringes Article 2, paragraph 7, of the Charter, I must ask that this be treated as an important matter within the meaning of Article 18. It can hardly be denied that it is an important matter when so many delegations, including three of the States mentioned by name in Article 23, the United States, France and the United Kingdom, as well as all the other States administering Non-Self-GoverJ;ling Territories, have felt it necessary to make reservations. I ask, therefore, that it be treated as an important matter, and I hope the resolution will be decisively rejected by the Assembly.

I call upon Mr. Menon, representative of India. ~ . Mr. MENON (India) : The Indian delegation,' in giving its support to the resolution now before the Assembly, would at the outset like to pay tribute to the statements that have been made by the delegations of the United Kingdom and the United States. .It is a matter of great satisfaction for us and of congratulation to the Assembly that, in its essence, namely, the bringing together of the peoples of Non-Self-Governing Territories, and in the matter of the achievement of the purposes which this resolution sets forth, neither the United States nor the United Kingdom has any objections. . That is what we should have expected because their policy, declared several times before the Committes of this Assembly and in the Assembly itself-we do not have to go into history one way or anbther at the moment-is that their objective, their aim, their basic principles in the administration of Non-SeH-Governing Territories is not only to promote their well·being, but also to promote their self-expression. Therefore, we feel deeply in the debt of the United Kingdom delegation and of the United States delegation in publicly declaring that they have no objection to the essential basis of this resolution. However, the objection would seem to arise froro the way in which we have handled the matter in the Committee. Here, may I say that in any committee and on any subject, one State or a number of States must take some initiative in either putting down a resolution or an amendd~ f~lre des reserves devant la Quatrieme CornffilSSlOn. Etant donne ces objections, la delegation du Royaume-Uni se voit obligee d'inviter les autres de~egations arejeter la presente proposition. En :,al~on ~e, la dernier~ cO?1sideration sur laquelle J al attIre plus partIcuherement 1'attention de l'Assemblee, asavoir que cette proposition cong.. titue une viola!ion de l'Article 2, paragraphe 7, ~c la <?hart.e" Je dois demander que cette questIon SOlt traltee comme une question importante au sens de l'Article 18. I1 est difficile de nier I'importance de cette question, alors que de si nombreuses delegations, notamment trois des Etats mentionnes nommement a1'Article 23: les Etats-Unis, la France et le Royaume-Uni, ainsi que tous les autres Etats qui administrent des territoires non autonomes, ont juge necessaire de faire des reserves sur cette question. le demande donc qu'elle soit traitee comme une question importante et j'espere que la proposition sera nettement rejetee par l'AssembIee. Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a. M. Menon, representant de l'rnde. M. MENON (Inde) (traduit de lJanglais): La delegation de l'Inde, en accordant son appui ala resolution deposee devant 1'Assemblee tient, des le debut, a rendre hommage aux declarations des delegations du Royaume-Uni et des Etats-Unis. Nous remarquons avec une satisfaction profonde que ni le Royaume-Uni, ni les Etati-Unis, n'ont €leve d'objection sur le fond de la resolution, a savoir sur le projet de reunir les peuples des territoires non autonomes et d'atteindre lea objectifs fixes par cette resolution. Nous nollS en rejouissons pour l'Assemblee. I Nous nous attendions a. cette attitude car la politique declaree de ces deux pays, politique affirinee plusieurs fois devant lesCommisisons de la presente Assemblee et dans l'Assemblee elle-meme-nous n'avons pas, pour le moment, et en aucune maniere, a. faire de l'histoire--est que leur objectif, leur but, leurs principes fondamentaux en ce qui concerne l'administration des territoires non autonomes ne sont pas seulement de favoriser la prosperite, mais aussi de favoriser la libre expression des sentiments des populations. Nous nous sentons donc profondement obliges vis-a.-vis des delegations du Royaume-Uni et des Etats-Unis pour leur declaration publique, selon laquelle eUes ne formulent aucune objection contre le fondement essentiel de la presente resolution. . Toutefois, la maniere dont la resolution a ete traitee au scin de la Commission peut preter a objection. M'est-il permis .de remarquer que, dans toute Commission, et sur tous sujets, it appartient a. un Etat, ou a un certain nombre d'Etats, de prendre l'initiative d'elaborer, soit, We of the Indian delegation will, along with a number of others, support this resolution and claim as much right to its ownership as anybody else. Having said that much, I should now like to deal with the various objections. First, it is said that this resolution contravenes paragraph 7 of Article 2 of the Charter. We have got into the habit here, when we cannot argue something in very great detail, quoting some Article of the Charter and saying that it is contravened. Let us look at article 2. It is an article relating to domestic jurisdiction, and it says: "Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any State, or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle ..." This resolution does not contemplate intervening in any colonial area. It does not propose taking over the administration of those territories. And what is more, indirectly, paragraph 7 is in favour of the resolution, in this way: Suppose that you wanted a conference of Non- Self"Governing Territories. Who would call it? Would the United States call it? If the United States called a conference, it would be intervening in the Non-Self-Governing Territories of the United Kingdom. Thus, there would be a violation of sovereignty. There is no authority in the world that can call a conference of Non-Self- Governing Peoples unless it be some ad hoc body, created by the consent of the various nations concerned. I thought that is what we were, a body created by the consent of Member States. So I repeat, paragraph 7 of Article 2, instead of being against the resolution, is in favour of it. ff anybody else convened a conference, there would be interference in the domestic jurisdiction, in the domestic affairs, of States. In any case, there is nothing in this resolution, nothing at all in this resolution, which can be considered as intervention in domestic affairs. The wishes and aspirati.ons of peoples are no longer domestic. If they were domestic, this whole Charter would be but a scrap of paper. They are a fundamental concern, they are the fundamental rights of peoples. The other sections of this Oharter that are concerned are those from which it may be argued that the Economic and Social Council is stepping beyond its limits and is doing something it ought not to do. That is the second set of objections that can be raised. I would ask you to address yourselves to Article 62, Then we come to paragraph 2. I quote: "It may make recommendations for the purpose of promoting respect for, and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms for all." I think a conference of this kind will help in promoting respect for fundamental rights for all. But the key paragraph in this matter is the last ::me: "It may call in accordance with the rules prescribed by the United Nations, international ·conferences on matters falling within its competence." Unless the opponents of this resolution are able to demonstrate that we are transgressing any rules prescribed there, or if no rules are prescribed, then they must proceed by the rules of common sense. No rules are prescribed by this Organization which militate against the calling of this" conference. It is said that this is not an international conference. If it is not an international conference, then what is it? It is an international conference, inasmuch as the administering authorities are the Members concerned; therefore .it is international. On the other hand, it is a conference of peoples, or groups which ought to be nations, in self-governing territories. Therefore it is an in~ ternational conference; it is not a national conference; it is not a tribal conference; it is not a 'world conference. It is a conference of nations, nations in the sense of governing nations, nations in the sense of people who are governed, whose nationality is latent and nearing fulfilment. Therefore there is nothing in the provisions of the Charter governing the Economic and Social Council which is against calling a conference. Let us now consider Chapter XI, which is taken by the authors of this resolution as the thesi~ upon which the resolution is based. It has been said here that there is nothing in Chapter XI which warrants the calling of this conference. ,Some people perhaps think that if'they ask their secretariats, or their government departments, to ,send a large number of statistics, which people mayor may not understand-one good thing about statistics is that if you put forth a lot of them they lose their purpose because people are not able to figure them'out-their functions are over. That is not the position, If the representatives consider sub-paragraph d of Article 7'3 of Chap- -ter XI, they find that it reads: "to promote We come to the objection raised by my friend, the representative of the United Kingdom. He would, he says, have supported the resolution relating to this conference as it was originally drafted, but that now it has been changed. I should like you to' look at. these changes. I am sure that my friend wants to be fair to this conference and to all those who disagree with him. What does the change refer to? It is in the last line of the resolution le•••to give the peoples of Non-Self-Governing Territories the opportunity of expressing their wishes and aspirations". The objection presumably is to the last part of this phrase "expressing their wishes and aspirations". I have compared the r~commenda­ tion in the original resolution and in this one. The first one, the draft that was rejected, says ". . . in order to give effect to the provisions and the spirit of Chapter XI of the Charter to the end that the traditions and aspirations of Non-Self-Governing Peoples may be given expression". I am sure that traditions are not ,entirely unrelated to the wishes of the peoples, so there is really no difference between these two texts. It is quite clear that those who have spoken against the resolution do not like the idea of this conference, and may I say that everyone welcomes respect Jor the letter of the Charter? But this morning, the Assembly, in violation of the pr~nciples' of the Charter, accepted the trusteeship a~eements, and now the representatives of, the Umted States and of the United Kingdom are opposing this resolution on the ground that it is an infringement of the, Charter. This is straining ,at a gnat, having already swallowed a couple of camels. . I say, therefore, that there is no fundamental VIolation of the principles of the Charter. What ~s mo~e. what is contemplated in this resolution 18 an Implementation of its purposes. N?w we come to what is perhaps the most CruCIal part of this resolution. What are we prop?sing to d?? We are not asking the EconolUlC and -SOClal Council to assume sovereignty ove; ~on-Self-Governing Territories; we are asking It to act as a bureau. I am sure that both the representatives who have spoken before me know the English language far better than' I ever s~alI. What does "together" mean? '!Together means a consensus of minds. You can. l~ souverainete sur les territoires qui ne s'admi~ mstrent pas eux-memes; nous lui demandons de re~plir l~ role d'un service administratif. Je sul;S certam que les deux representants qui ODt pm la parole avant moi connaissent la langue anglaise bien mieux que je ne le ferai jamais. My familiarity with the whole of this organization is meagre, but there is a number of conferences, UNESCO, or the Monetary Conference for example, where certain Member States do not participate, but still the machinery is set in operation. Therefore, the word "together" is a key word. "Together with" eliminates the whole idea of the abrogation of sovereignty. We have the machinery of the Economic and Social Council, which is dealing with matters of this kind, within a scope that is not narrow or national, whicb has contacted Member States, which is a responsible body, a body on which Member States are represented. That body can use its machinery in order to bring together this State and that State. We all know that metropolitan Powers governing colonial territories are not always fond of each other, and perhaps a third party like the Economic and Social Council would be the best organ to bring them together. So this word "together" is important. There is no question of the Economic and Social Council writing to the Colonial Office and saying: "Send us a couple of representatives from the Gold Coast". What the Economic and Social Council would say is this: "We propose to convene a conference. This is what we want to do ..." It might even convene a preliminary conference of Member States to find out where the conference should be held, or whether the ruling Powers wanted any particular item to be excluded from the agenda. I can imagine, for instance, some country-not the United Kingdom or the United States-saying: "We shall not have any discus~ sion at this conference on the law of sedition." The machinery for convening the conference contemplated by this resolution has two parts, which cannot function until they are brought together. One of these parts is the Member States, and they have, in fact, what is called in this Assembly a veto. Therefore, of what are they afraid? . Thus, I believe, I have answered the objections that have been raised to this resolution. Before I leave this rostrum, I want to deal with the narrow, hair-splitting, legalistic attitude to this problem. It would be a great mistake for this Assembly, or any other, to try to--sit upon the rising sentiments of peoples, and their desire to express themselves and to come together. You cannot sit on the top of a volcano without danger to yourself. There are several hundreds of millions of .: ,that is awkward, every question to which a maembarrassante, toute question contre laquelle jority or a minority has some objection, comes une majorite ou une minorite presente une obunder Article 18, I think the exception will bejection, releve de l'Article 18, je crois que come the rule. l'exception deviendra la regie. With these observations, I commend this Sur ces observations, je demande a l'Assemresolution to the Assembly's acceptance. blee d'adopter la resolution.

Le PRESIDENT: Nous avons entendu, sur We have heard two speakers in favour of this cette question, deux orateurs pour les reresolution, the representatives of the Philippine presentants de la Republique des Philippines et Republic and India, and two against, the reprede l'Inde, et deux orateurs contre, les representatives of the United States of America and sentants des Etats-Unis d'Amerique et du the United Kingdom. Royaume-Uni. There are still two speakers-namely, the rep- 11 reste encore deux orateurs inscrits, le repreresentative of Yugoslavia and the representative sentant de la Yougoslavie et cdui de la France. of France. I presume that the representative Je suppose que le representant de la Yougoslavie of Yugoslavia is in favour of the draft resolution /' est pour le projet de resolution et le representant and the representative of France is against. ...de la France contre. Ne pourrions-nous clore Could we not close the list of speakers? We la liste des orateurs? Nous aurions entendu trois shall then have heard three speakers for, and orateurs pour et trois contre, sur une question three speakers against, on a question which has qui revient devant l'Assemblee generale. Cela again come before the General A~semblv. That me parait suffisant. appears to me to be sufficient. . Is there any objection? The list of speakers is closed. . . 11 n'y apas d'opposition? La liste des ora.teUrB est close. s~rieuses faites devant la Sixieme Commission, la premiere proposition de la delegation d~ Philippines aurait ete amendee. Or, la Sixieme Commission a, en dIet, ete saisie par l'Assemblee generale de la proposition emanant de la delegation des Philippines, mais cette premiere proposition n'a meme pas ete discutee au sem de cette Commission. C'est un fait. Nous avoIlS ete saisis, quant au fond seulement, de la deuxieme proposition. Etant donne que nollS n'avons meme pas discute la premiere, nous n'avons pas pu faire d'objections d'ordre juridique. Le deuxieme point concerne l'mterpretation donnee par les representants du Royaume-Uni et des Etats-Unis d'Amerique quant a la possibilite pour le Conseil economique et social d'etre competent au sujet de cette question. The second point concerns the interpretation given by the representative of the United Kingdom and by the representative of the United States of America concerning the possible competence of the Economic and Social Council with respect to this question. The Yugoslav delegation is very glad that the United States and the United Kingdom agree with us all in affirming that the Charter contains a solemn declaration on behalf of Non-Self- Governing Peoples. It is also glad to note that the representatives of these States agree that the Charter should be observed stricti\'. Nevertheless; these States allege that the fact of having omitted to mention any organ as being the competent body to deal with the application of the principles set forth in the Charter, in the Chapters concerning Non~Self-Governing Territories, does not mean the exclusion of all the organs. Allow me to state that this fact merely means that it is proper to apply ordinary law by granting their normal competence to the organs provided in the Charter. Now, the organ in ordinary law which is competent for the purposes of consulting the national organizations representing the Non-Self-Governing Peoples is the Economic and Social Council. ' How can we prove this competence? By the Charter itself. According to the terms of Article 5f) of the Charter: La delegation yougoslave est tres heureuse que les Etats-Unis et le Royaume-Uni soient d'accord avec taus pour affinner que la Charte contient une declaration solennellc en faveur des peuples non autonomes. Elle est heureuse egalement que les representants de ces Etats soient d'accord pour dire que la Charte c;loit etre observee strictement. Mais lesdits Etat<; ant pretendu que le fait d'avoir omis de mentionner un organe qudconque comme etant competent pour s'occuper de l'application des principes enonces dans la Charte aux Chapitres concernant les territoires non autonomes, ne signifie pas l'exclusion de tous les organismes. Permettez-moi de dire que ce fait signifie tout simplement qu.'il convient d'appliquer le droit commun er,l accordant aux organes prevus par la Charte leur competence nonnale. Or, l'organe de droit commun qui est competent pour consulter les organisations nationales representant des peuples non autonomes est le Conseil eco- 1I0mique et social. Comment pouvons-nolls prouver yette competence? Par la Charte elle-meme. :\ux telmes de l'Article 55 de la Charte: "... les Nations Unies favoriseront: "a. le reU:vement des niveaux de vie, le plein emploi et des conditions de progres et de developpement dans l'ordre economique et social; "b. la solution des problemes internationaux dans les domaines economique, social, de la sante publique et autres problemes connexes; et la cooperation internationale dans les domaines de la culture intel1ectuelIe et de l'education; "c. le respect universel et effectif des droits H ••• the United Nations shall promote: "a. higher standards of living, full employment, and conditions of economic and social progress and development; "b. solutions of international economic, social, health, and related problems; and international cultural and· educational co-operation; "c. universal respect for, and observance Article 71 of the Charter provides that the Economic and Social Council shall create the means for consulting the organizations. It says: "The Economic and Social Council may make suitable arrangements for consultation with non-governmental organizations which are concerned with matters within its competence. Such arrangements may be made with international organizations and, where appropriate, with national organizations after consultation with the Member of the Unit~d Nations concerned." Who are the representatives of the Non-Self- Governing Peoples? They are the persons who represent the organizations of the Non-Self- Governing Peoples. Hence, the calling of a conference of representatives of Non-Sdf-Governing Peoples amounts merely to an opportunity to , consult the representatives of the national organizations of these peoples. If we reject this argument, we. should once again give our support to the terrible fascist doctrine of racial distinction. The fact that we, in this Assembly, might provide for action on the part of national organizations capable' of being consulted, by the Economic and Social Council would mean making distinctions between certain nationalities and certain languages of the States represented here. If, in these same States, we exclude the other national organizations of Non-Self. Governing Peoples, we shall be making in these States distinctions as to race and language. In view of the explanations I have given, I think everybody will agree that neither the United States nor the United Kingdom has the intention of making racial distinctions. If, in this Assembly, we do not wish to make racial distinctions, we ought to give the Non-Self-Governing' Peoples an opportunity to be consulted through the medium of their national organizations. The Charter contains a condition, however, to the effect that such consultation may take place only "after consultation with the Member of the United Nations concerned". I am not contesting the right to be consulted granted by the Charter to countries administer- !ng. N?I1-Self-Governing Territories. But that IS preCISely what the resolution proposes. In its Le fait que nollS, au sein de cette Assemblee, pourrions prevoir l'action d'organisations nationales pouvant etre consultees par le Conseil economique et social, signifierait que nom etablissons des distinctions entre certaines nationalites et certaines langues cles Etats qui sont representes id. Si, dans ces memes Etats, nous excluons les autres organisations nationales des peuples non autonomes, nous faisons, dans ces Etats, des distinctions de races et de langues. < Je'pense que tout le monde est cl'accord pour estimer, etant donne les raisons que je viem d'indiquer, que ni les Etats-Unis, ni le Royaume- Uni n,ont l'intention de faire des distinctions raciales. Si nollS ne voulons pas faire id des distinctions raciales, nOllS devons laisser aux peuples non autonomes la possibilite d'etre consultes par le canal de leurs organisations nationales. La Charte prevoit cependant une condition, a savoir que cette consultation ne peut avoir lieu qu'apres "consultation du Membre interesse de l'Organisation". Je ne conteste pas le droit que la Charte accorde aux pays qui ont des territoires non autonomes sous leur souverainete, d'etre consultes. Mais c'est justement ce qui a ete introduit M. PARODI (France): La position de la delegation fran~aise sur la question dont nous discutons n'a pas vari6 depuis l'introduction de la motion de la deh~gation des Philippines. Cette position a ete exprimee successivement au Bureau de l'Assemblee, puis dans les differentes formations des Sixieme et Quatrieme Commissions. Je n'ai pas l'intention d'insi~ter sur les reserves que nous avons formulees quant ala procedure. Je me borne, acet egard, ame reporter acc qu'a dit le representant du Royaume-Uni que je tiens, pour ma part, aconfirmer; et si j'estimais' devoir m'etendre sur ce sujet, je ne ferais qu'aggraver ce qu'il a dit lui-meme. J'ajouterai seulement une remarque de caractere general. Je souhaite, pour le bon ordre de nos travaux futurs, qu'a l'avenir nous nous en tenions a une interpretation plus stricte, et plus exacte d'aiUeurs, de nos regles de procedure, et que, lorsqu'une question est aussi grave que ce1le-ci, aussi lourde de consequences, nous n'admettions plus, alors, qu'elle ne presente pas un caractere d'urgence, qu'elle soit introduite sans que les Etats ~teresses p.uissent ~ene£icier ~u d6lai normal de soixante Jours. C est un pomt sur leque1 nous aurons peut-etre l'occasion de revenir. Je me refereegalement a ce qu'a dit le representant du Royaume-Uni en ce qui concerne la suite de la procedure, c'est-a.-dire la mani.e:e dont . nous serons appe16s avoter sur la propOSItIon. Mr. PARODI (France) (translated from French) : The position of the French delegation on the question under discussion has not changed since the Philippine motion was introduced. Our point of view has, in turn, been stated in the General Committee, then in the various organs of the Sixth and Fourth Committees. I do not propose to press further our reservations as to procedure. In this connexion, I shall confine myself to referring to the remarks of the United Kingdom representative, which I, for my part, wish to confirm; if I felt it my duty to dwell on the subject at any length, I should only lend greater emphasis to what he has said. I shall merely add a general observation. For the sake of good order in our future work, I hope that we shall adhere to a closer, and incidentally more exact, interpretation of our rules of procedure, so that we may not, in a question as serious and as pregnant with consequences as this one, admit its being introduced (particularly if it is not an urgent matter) without the States concerned being able to benefit from the normal sixty-day time limit. This is a point to which we may have an opportunity to revert. I would also refer to the remarks of the United Kingdom representative on the procedure to be adopted; that is to say, the manner in which we shall be called upon to vote on the propCisal. If any proof were needed that the question before us is important, it would be furnished abundantly by the vehemence with which it has been defended, the length of the debates in the various committees and, I would add, the obvious fact that all those who have spoken here are greatly interested in it. Que la question soumise soit importante, c:est ce qu'etablit suffisamment, je pense, la passlo)1 qui a ete mise a la defendre, la longueur des debats devant les differentes Commissions et j'ajouterai l'interet que lui portent visiblement tous ceux qui ont parle ici. Je ne puis m'associer aux delegations pour lesquelles le fait de dire qu'il y a "quelque organe" equivaut seulement a une obligation morale, mais non pas aune obligation juridique des Etats qui se sont engages a appliquer les dispositions de la Charte. En dIet, cette these est exclue par la regIe juridique de la competence generale et, pour les Nations Unies, la competence generale est ceUe de l'Assemblee. Lorsqu'il s'agit des questions d'ordre social et humanitaire, la competence generale est ceUe du Conseil economique et social. Mon intervention n'a pas d'autre objet que l'application de la Charte et que la preoccupation d'assurer la competence generale des organes des Nations Unies. Pour les raisons que je viens d'exposer, la dele. gation yougoslave se prononce en faveur de la resolution presentee par la delegation des Philippines, telle qu'elle a ete soumise ala Commission. I should have some scruples about pressing this legal point, since the representative of the Philippines himself-and his warm eloquence has every merit, including that of frankness-has clearly recognized that what he is proposing to liS, and that is the real issue, means exceeding the provisions of the Charter; in clear language that means violating the Charter. I think the representative of India was hardly less clear when, after an attempt at juridical argument, he told us that we should not take up our position on too narrow legal grounds; the full import of this euphemism is self-evident. My country has given abundant evidence that it is prepared to accept certain limitations upon the sovereignty of States. By her whole tradition, France is strongly inclined to accept Par ces deux traits caracteristiques, la resolution soumise est incontestablement contraire aux dispositions de la Charte. Le Chapitre XI de la Charte ne contient aucune disposition qui cntame d'une fa~on quelconque, au profit des Nations Unies, l'autorite des gouvernements nationaux sur les territoires dont il s'agit. , D'autre part, si l'Article 62, paragraphe 4, de la Charte permet au C.onseil economique et social de convoquer des conferences internationales, c'est a un autre texte qu'on s'est refere tout al'heure. Le Conseil ne peut convoquer des conferences intemationales que sur des questions de sa competence. Or, le Conseil economique et social n'est pas competent en matiere politique. 11 n'a pas competence, d'autre part, p<;mr organiser des conferences des representants de terntoires. Il ne peut reunir que des conferences de representants d'Etats. C'est la. le sens evident, et personne ne saurait serieusement le contester, de l'expression "conferences internationales" qui figure dans le texte. Ce n'est la d'ailleurs que l'expression du principe de la souverainete des Etats: non seulement sauvegarde par la mention du paragraphe 7 de l'Article 2, mais encore directement affirm6 dans le paragraphe 1 dudit Article. J'aurais que1que scrupule a insister sur cette demonstration de lCgalite puisque, aussi bien, le representant des. Philippines, dont 1'610quence chaleureuse a tous les merites et aussi celui de la franchise, a reconnu ici de la maniere la plus nette que ce qu'il nous propose, ce dont il s'ag-it en realite, c'est ne deborder les dispositions de la Charte; ce qui, en langage clair signifie violer la Charte. Je crois que le representant de l'rnde n'a guere ete mains clair lorsque, apres un essai de demonstration juridique, il nous a dit qu'il etait necessaire de ne pas se placer sur un terrain trop strictement juridique; euphemisme dont la portee apparait d'elle-meme. Mon pays a suffisamment indique qu'il etait dispose a accepter certaines limitations de la souverainetc des Etats. I1 est tres porte, par toute sa tradition, a admettre l'idee que l'ideal I do not wish to dwell on this point either; it has been very accurately argued by the United States representative. I merely wish to say t~is. 'The attemps to misconstrue the Charter, WhICh are revealed in the resolution submitted to you ar'e, as a precedent, extremely grave. There is no doubt that if you agree to create this precedent, it might tomorrow be applied to many other Powers in connexion with many other proposals for international conferences. Once it is admitted that conferences may be convened over the heads of governments, I see no reason ~hy, in similar circumstances, conferences of all kmds of racial or political minorities should not be called tomorrow! The draft resolution before us is, no doubt generous in appearance. Its aims are the aims of my country, which attaches to them all the importance which they deserve, and has g011~ a long way towards their realization. All the territories under French sovereignty at the present time are, not only under our law, but more recently under our Constitution, covered by the following system: they all have an assembly, elected by universal suffrage, which is in charge of domestic affairs and wields considerable adrninistrative power, including even certain attributions which, under normal metropolitan legislation, come under the law. Moreover, the deputies, who are also elected by universal suffrage, represent these territories in the Parliament, and by that I mean the various bodies which, under our Constittuoin, form the Parliament. To sum up: We do not think that any Power represented here is prepared to surrender its sovereignty over the territories or populations dependent on such sovereignty. That is the very foundation of the existence of States. We are undoubtedly on the horns of a dilemma: either the draft resolution concerns the In any case, whichever alternative it is proposed to adopt, nothing can be done, in view of the present terms of the Charter, unless the Charter is first amended. For that reason, my delegation, in agreement with representatives of the United Kingdom, Australia, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa and the United States, expressed the most explicit reservations during the discussions in the Fourth Committee, reservations which are recorded in the report and which I reiterate here; they apply to the successive versions of the Philippine proposal. My delegation cannot accept a draft resolution which is likely to shake the very foundations of co-operation between sovereign nations which the Charter aims to promote. This proposal could lead only to disorder, suspicion andmistrust among the nations. I have no doubt that the same attitude will be adopted by all the delegations which are anxious to respect the Charter and, through it, the spirit of co-operation which we should cherish.

I call upon Mr. WELLINGTON Koo, representative of China, who wishes to submit an amendment. Mr. WELLINGTON Koo (China): I think yciu will all agree that the question before the Assembly, as raised in the draft resolution now before you, is a very important one. It concerns the welfare of millions of people scattered in different parts of the world. We have heard a debate which brings out very clearly that there are tWQ views held on this draft resolution.. Both views have been very ably, presented, and we of the Chinese delegation feel that there is something in the view of both sides.. On one side, there is a legal point which carries some weight with us; on the other hand, there is a practical argument which also isimportant to bear in mind. But whatever arguments have been presented, there is one thing we should all keep in mind: it is that we all want to advance the welfare of the Non-Self- Governing Peoples. On that point, after listening to the speeches on one side and on the other, our impression is very strong that both sides are agreed on this primary aim of advancing the welfare of these peoples. Le PRESIDENT: La parole est a M. WELLING- TON Koo, representant de la Chine, qui desire presenter un amendement. M. WELLINGTON Koo (Chine) (traduit de l'anglais): Je pense que vous admettrez tous le probleme qui est soumis a l'Assemblee, sous la forme qu'il revet dans le projet de resolution que nous discutons, est un probleme tres important. Il concerne le bien-etre de millions de gens dissemines dans differentes parties du monde. Le debat auquel nous avons assiste fait ressortir tres c1airement qu'a propos de ce projet de resolution, il y a deux theses en presence. EUes ont ete l'une et l'autre presentees avec beaucoup de competence et notre delegation estime qu'il y a du vrai dans les deux theses. D'un cote, il y a la question juridique qui n'est pas sans quelque importance pour nous; de l'autre, il y a l'argument d'ordre pratique dont il importe egalement de tenir compte. Mais, que1s que soient les arguments invoques, il y a une chose qu'aucun de nous ne peut oublier, c'est que nous voulons tous favoriser la prosperite des peuples qui ne s'administrent pas eux-memes~ Apres avoir ecoute les discours des defenseurs des deux theses, nous avons vraiment l'impression qu'ils sont d'accord les uns et les autres sur. ce but essentiel. Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a M. Romulo, representant de la Republique des Philippines.

I call upon Mr. Romulo, repre~entai.i'!c of the Philippine Republic. Mr. ROMULQ (Philfppine Repulic): We are very happy that everybody seems to be ap;reed that the purpose sought by the resolution is laudable. As I pointed out in my first statement before this body this afternoon, the methods can be adjusted. We are indebted to the representative of China for proposing his amendment. In the spirit of conciliation which has been the keynote of this resolution from the very beginning, I accept that amendment and I will read the text as it now stands: M. ROMULO (Republique des Philippines (traduit de l'anglais) : Nous sommes heureux de constater que tout le mande semble d'aceord pour admettre que l'objet de la resolution est louable. Comme je l'ai signale dans man premier expose devant cette Assemblee, cet apres-midi, il est possible de mettre les differentes methodes en harmonie. Nous sommes reconnaissants au representant de la Chine de l'amendement qu'il a presente. Dans l'esprit de conciliation qui, elCs le debut, a marque les debats relatifs a cctte resolution, j'accepte cet amendement et .ie vais en donner lecture dans sa redaction actudle: Will the United States, the advocate of the other view, accept that amendment? I gladly second the amendment presented by the representative of China. Mr. DULLES (United States of America): The delegation of the United States, reciprocating the spirit of conciliation that has been shown, is happy to accept the amendment proposed to the resolution.

I am reluctant to break the unanimity which is about to take shape but I know from experience that it is dangerous to improvise texts of this nature. There is one observation I should like to make: why should thte new text require the intervention of the Economic and Social Council? Why should not the Assembly, if it wishes to make a recommendation, do so directly? Why should it recommend to the Economic and Social Council to invite the authorities concerned to organize a conference? I call upon Mr. Parodi, representative of France., Mr. PAROD! (France) (translated from French): I should like to pay a tribute to the skill with which textual changes have been used since this question was first considered. . . After the Philippine proposal was ~ubmitted, It was referred to the Legal Committee for a study of its legality. When we were about to begi.n this ~onsideration, the Philippine proposal vamshed: It was replaced by a diluted version. Amendments were added to this text at the n:eeting of the Fourth Committee, which practlcally brought the text back to its original strength. Is t~ere ~nything in the amendment before . ~s WhIC~ nught do away with the legal objectIOns WhICh we expressed a short while ago? Let us look' at the text again. > If I understood the wording correctly, the G~neral Assembly re~o~?Ie~ds t!::lat the Economic and Social Council lI~v~te the administrative authonties". But .t~e or~gInal text said "together with the a?mInlStratlve authorities". I fail to see the dIfference. The C?arter is violated when one speaks of approachmg administrative authorities. It is M. DULLES (Etats-Unis d'Amerique) (tradui! de l'anglais): Temoignant de l'esprit de conciliation qui s'est manifeste jusqu'ici, la delegation des Etats-Unis est heureuse de donner son adhesion a l'amendement qui est propose a la resolution. Le PRESIDENT: Je ne voudrais pas rompre l'unanimite qui est en train de se manifester mais je sais par experience qu'il est tres dangereux d'improviser des textes de ce genre. J'ai une remarque apresenter: dans le nouveau texte, pourquoi doit-on passer par le Conseil economique et social? Si l'AssembICe a un vreu a emettre) pourquoi ne l'emet-eIle pas directement? Pourquoi doit-elle recommander au Conseil economique et social d'inviter les autorites interessees a organiser une conference? Je donne la· parole a:M. Parodi, representant de la France. M. PARODI (France): le rends hommage a la science avec laquelle on a fait usage des modifications de textes depuis le debut de l'examen de cette affaire. Apres que la proposition des Philippines a ete introduite, eIle a ete renvoyee devant la Commis· sion juridique pour un examen de sa legalite. Au moment ou nous allions proceder a cet examenJ l,a;proposition des Philippines a disparu; elIe a ete remplacee par un texte plus faible. A ce texte, ala seance de la Quatrieme Commissien, sont venus s'ajouter des amendements qui) prati- 'quement, ont rendu au texte sa vertu primitive. Ya-t-il, dans l'amendement presente, quelque chose qui puisse faire tomber les objections de droit que nous avons formulees tout al'heure? Je reprends ce texte. Si j'ai bien note sa re· daction, l'Assemblee recommande que le Conseil economique et social "invite les autorites admi· nistratives". Or, le texte primitif disait: "conjointement avec les autorites administratives". Je ne vois pas bien la difference. n y a violation de la Charte lorsqu'on parle de s'adresser ades autorites administratives. Ce Je maintiens done entierement les objections que j'ai formulees sur ce texte, car je considere qu'il se heurte a des objections de legislation, objections que j'ai formuIees anterieurement. Je repete ce qui a ete dit tout al'heure: la Charte est notre garantie atous. J'ajoute que, si la Charte est notre loi ecrite, il y a autre chose en cette loi qui est la collaboration de taus les Etats qui ont accepte de souscrire ala Charte, qui ont accepte de limiter leur souverainete dans la mesure des engagements auxquels lis ont souscrit. La collaboration de tous les Etats est l'eIement dominant et moteur de tout ce qui fait les Nations Unies. n en est specialement ainsi en ce qui concerne l'application des Chapitres XI et XII de la Charte. En ce qui concerne le Chapitre XI specialement, je rappelle id que celui·d ne se presente pas dans les m~mes fonnes que les autres dispositions de la Charte. Il s'intitule "Declaration", et contient une declaration unilaterale d'un certain nombre d'Etats dont la Charte s'est bornee a prendre acte. Ceci est tout a. fait clair, aucune contestation n'est possible a. cet egard. Cette disposition, plus encore que les autres, suppose la collaboration de tous les Etats. Je suis oblige de faire, en cequi concerne l'amendement propose, les memes reserves absolument formelles que j'avais opposees a la proposition initiale. Je demande a l'AssembIee de bien vouloir tenir compte de toutes ces observations, de bien vouloir nous assurer le respect complet des garanties qui sont notre loi atous, et aussi de ne rien faire qui puisse rendre difficile l'esprit de collaboration intemationale auque1 vous savez que mon pays est attache autant certainement qu'aucun autre pays ici represente. Le PRESIDENT: Je n'aijamais ete aussi mal a l'aise acette presidence. J'ai l'impression d'etre le conducteur cl'une automobile qui n'apas de freins, ou d'etre dans la situation de quelqu'un devant garder un enfant qui va commettre une

I have never been so unhappy in the Chair. I feel as though I were driving a motor-car which had no brakes or like a person who is looking after a baby which is about to misbehave and Mr. PEREZ CrsNERos (Cuba) (translated from French): The Cuban delegation would like to say a few words in support of the Chair. It is clear that the General Assembly has no need of the intervention of the Economic and Social Council in order to make recommendations to governments assuming the administration of Non-Self-Governing Territories. It is entirely free to approach these governments directly and to make such recommendations as it may deem necessary. Our delegation also appreciates the danger inherent in too spontaneous amendments and, although we consider the Chinese amendment to be a very serious endeavour to achieve a compromise, we cannot accept iUn full, particularly after hearing Mr. Spaak's remarks. At this difficult stage of our discussion, the Cuban delegation would like to recall that it also submitted an amendment which may perhaps solve the problem. This amendment has the advantage of having been drafted unhurriedly, of having been submitted to the Sub-Committee, of having been discussed there, and even of having received several favourable votes at the time. It will not therefore come as a surprise to anybody. We might perhaps even vote upon it and thus decide this question, on which we are all agreed in principle. The Cuban amendment submitted to Sub- Committee 2 of the Sixth Committee is couched in thr. following terms: "The General Assembly recommends to the Members having or assuming responsibilities for the administration of Non-Self-Governing Territories to convene conferences of representatives of Non-Self-Governing Peoples, chosen or preferably elected in such a way that the representation of the people will be ensured to the extent that the particular ~onditions of the territory concerned permit, 111 order that the letter and spirit of Chapter XI of the Charter may be observed and the wishes and aspirations of the Non-Self-Governing Peoples may be expressed." It. ~s with ~. constructive purpose and in a conCIlIatory spmt that the Cuban delegation has the honour to place it~ amendment before the Chair, with the request that it be submitted to .the consideration of the Assembly. M. PEREZ CISNEROS (Cuba): La deleg-ation de Cuba tient en qUelgllCS mots a s'a~socier aux observations du President. Il est evident que l'Assemblee generale n'a pas besoin de passer par l'intermcdiaire du Conseil economique et social pour faire des recommandations aux Gouvernements qui asi'Ument l'administration de territoires non autonomes. Elle peut parfaitement s'adresser directement aces Couvcrncmcnts et leur hire· les recommandations qu'elle juge necessaires. Notre delegation reconnalt aussi le danger des amendements un peu trop spontanes et, bien qu'elle voie dans l'amendement chinois un effort tres serieux de conciliation, elle ne peut l'accepter completement, sllI'tout aprcs avail' entendu les observations de M. Spaak. La delegation de Cuba, en ce moment difficile de notre discussion, voudrait rappe1er qu'elle aussi a presente un amendement qui constituerait peut-etre la solution du probleme. Cet amendemerit a l'avantage d'avoir ete redigedans le calme, d'avoir ete soumis ala Sous-Commission, d'avoir ete discutc par celle-ci et d'avoir mcme recueilli plusieurs voix au collI's du vote. Par consequent, il ne sera une surprise pour personne. Peut-etre pourrons-nous meme le voter et ainsi trancher cette question, sur le principe de laquelle nous sommes tous d'accord. L'amendement cubain presente a la Sous- Commission 2 de la Sixieme Commission a le texte suivant: "L'Assemblee generale reeommande a tous les Membres qui ont ou qui assument l''l.dministration de territoires non autonomes, de convoquer des conferences de reprcsentants de peuples non autonomes, ehoisis ou prcfcrablement elus, de fa~on a assurer la representation du peuple dans la mesure nu le pennettront les conditions particulieres du territoireeonsidere, afin de realiser l'esprit et la lettre du Chapitre XI de la Charte, et de permettre ainsi aux sentiments et aux aspirations des populations non autOl1omes de s'ex- . " pruner. C'est dans un esprit construetif et de conciliation que la delegation de Cuba a l'honneur de deposer cet amendement sur le bureau de la presidence, pour que celle-ci veuille bien la soumettre a la consideration de l'Assemblee. Mr. THOMAS (United Kingdom) : 'Mr. Pres'ident, as has been pointed out, it is very difficult to do drafting in a meeting of the General Assembly, but we must do the best that we can. When you made your suggestion about the Economic and Social Council, the same thought was running through my mind, and it has now been accepted by the representative of Cuba. ~. THOMAS (Royaume-Uni) (traduit de l'anglazs): Monsieur le President, comme on l'a deja signale, il est tres difficile de faire du travail de redaction au cours d'une seance plCnicre de l'Assemblee, mais nous devons faire de notre mieux. Lorsque vous avez presente votrc suggestion au sujet du Conseil economique et social, la meme pensee m'etait venue a l'esprit et la voici maintenant acceptee par le representant de Cuba. Je voudrais joindre mes eloges a ceux qu'ont exprimes la generalite des representants pour les efforts tentes par le representant de la Chine en vue de trouver un texte susceptible de recueillir l'approbation generale de l'AssembIee. J'ai le sentiment que le texte que nous propose maintenant le representant de Cuba est celui qui repond le mieux a cette intention. Comme cc representant l'a remarque, il presente l'avantage de ne pas avail' ete redige en hate. 11 a ete soumis pendant un cehain temps ala Sous-Commission et nous avons eu le loisir de l'examiner. Je serais done dispose a accepter, au nom de la delegation du Royaume-Uni, l'amendement qui ;' nous est actuellement propose par le representant de Cuba. Quant a l'amendement soumis par le representant de la Chine, je dirai qu'il ne m'appara1t nullement necessaire, et qu'il est meme inopportun de faire entrer en jeu le Conseil economique et social en cette circonstance. Le soin de convoquer de telles conferences devrait etre laisse aux Gouvernements des Etats administrant dcs territoires non autonomes, conformement d'ailleurs a une pratique deja etablie. I should like to join in the general appreciation which has been shown to the representative of China for trying to produce a text that will be generally acceptable to the Assembly. I belkve that the text now proposed by the representative of Cuba is the one that will come nearest to that intention. As he pointed out, it has the advantage of not having been hurriedly prepared. It was before the Sub-Committee for some time, and we had an opportunity of considering it. I should therefore, be willing on behalf of the United Kingdom delegation, to accept the amendlnent which is now proposed by the representative of Cuba. With regard to the amendment moved by th~ representative of China, I think it would be quite unnecessary, and indeed inappropriate, to bring in the Economic and Social Council at. this tilne. It ought to be left to the Governments of the States administering Non-Self-Governing Territories to call such conferences, as indeed we are already doing. Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a M. MeJ;lon, representant de l'Inde.

I call upon Mr. Menon, representative of India. M. MENON (Inde) (traduit de l~anglais): Nous voici ramenes devant cette constatation evidente que tous les orateurs sont animes du desir de parvenir au resultat qui est l'objet.e.:- sentie! de cette resolution, et que toutes les dIffIcultes paraissent porter sur la question de savoir quelle est l'autorite qui devrait convoquer les conferences. A la trcs genereuse proposition de mediation de la delegation chinoise, sur laquelle notre avis a ere sollicite, nous nous sommes rallies, avec le desir de voir l'AssemblCe ratifier une resolution qui rendit ~ossible la convoc~tion de, 1; conference envisagce. Je demanderaI ala delellation du Royaume-Uni et a cenes des autres Puissances coloniales interessees d'admettre que ceux qui souhaiten~ q~e, cette co~~erenc~ ~e reunisse ne sont pas mspIres par le desIr de 1utIliser pour narguer, d'u~le ~1aniere 9uelconquc: l'autorite et la souveralllete des Pmssances qUI assurent l'administration 0\1 pour y porter atteinte. Un amendement - une suggestion d'amendement plutot qu'un veritable amendement - a ete propose par le President. :'enant ~'une autorite aussi distinguee, il mente certamement la Iv1r. MENON (India) : Once again it is becoming very clear that all parties to this debate are anxious to obtain the result which is basic to this resolution, and all the difficulties appear to refer to the question of the convening authority. To the very generous mediation of the Chinese delegation we, as one of the parties consulted, agreed because We wanted to obtam the sanction of this Assemblv to a resolution which would make the conferen~e possible. I would ask the United Kingdom delegation and other a'dministering Powers concerned to accept the view that thos·e .Yho desire this conference have no desire to use it for flouting or in any way infringing the authority and the sovereignty of the adminj:'(tering Powers. After the amendment had been moved, an amendment--(Jr rather an amending suggestion-was made from the Chair; coming as it does from such a distinguished authority, one If the General Assembly has to do the inviting and the convening, it probably would have to wait until the next General Assembly meets. The Economic and Social' Council meets more frequently, perhaps all the time, and is in a position to undertake a task of this kind. We would all appreciate and entirely agree with the concern of the President of the Assembly to guard the authority of the Assembly. He is its custodian, and if he did not do that it would be a very bad day for us. But no one is suggesting in this amendment the abrogation of the power of the Assembly. I very humbly suggest that the Economic and Social Council is an organ of the Assembly. What we have said is that that organ should undertake the task, upon the Assembly'S instruction. It is no different from asking the Secretary of the Assembly to do it, except that the Economic and Social Council, by its functions, by the tasks allotted to it, by the material that comes its way, by the general quality of business that it handles, is more appropriate for a function of this kind. If representatives of this Assembly, therefore, are interested in the purpose of this conferenceand this debate has shown that they are-we hope that this middle way or this way of conciliation that has been indicated by the kind intervention of the Chinese delegation, and to which the United States delegation has agreed, will met with their approval. If it does not, it means that even if the resolution were adopted it would remain inoperable for a long period. The issue of the infringement of the Charter has-been raised. I think it is unnecessary to argue it. But the other argument, which is even stronger, comes from the representative of Prance. He say that these territories are represented here by us, the ruling authorities. This recalls the words of Louis XIV: "I am the State." We have moved away from those . days, and I once again appeal to this Assembly to realize that all these legal trammels and Complications, these cobwebs which we create to' marvel at their intricacy, will not dispense with the rising feelings of the people, and their de~ sire to come together. A conference of this kind if nothing else, from the point of view of administering authorities, is a reasonable safety valve. . It is something that enables people to come together to share ideas and find ways of expression for reform and for moving forward. . Therefore, apart from all these legal difficul. tle~, I ask the Assembly, in voting for this resolutIOn, to pear this great issue in mind: all

I am now going to put to the vote the question whether the Assembly considers that this proposal requires a two-thirds majority. I have to raise this question before the voting, since otherwise representatives might have serious scruples about it. Mr. THOMAS (United Kingdom): Mr. President, may I explain that my request for a two-thirds vote applied only to the original proposal, and would not apply to the various amendments that have been suggested?

Amendments do not require a two-third majority; they are adopted if they obtain a simple majority. After the vote on the amendments, however, we shall have to have a ballot on the text as a whole, and I should like to consult the Assembly as to the majority which will then be required. I shall give you my own opinion and put my proposal to the vote. The only way to bring some light into the debate is.to assume some responsibility. As I already told you, I greatly regret being in the Chair, for I should have liked to defend my country's interests, which are so gravely involved in this matter. This suggestsand I feel it myself-that perhaps I am not altogether impartial. . I quote from the actual text submitted to us by the Commitee. It says: "Recognizing the importance of the declaration contained in Chapter Xl of the Charter especially as it concerns the peace and security of the world ..." Le PRESIDENT: Les amendements ne doivent pas etre votes a la majorite des deux tiers; ils sont adoptes s'ils recueillent la majorite simple. ,Neanmoins, apres le vote sur les amendements, nous procederons a un scrutin sur l'ensemble du texte. Je demande alors l'avis de l'Assemblee sur la majorite que devra recueillir ce texte. Je vais vous donner mon avis et je mettrai aux voix ma proposition. Le seul moyen d'eclaircir le debat, c'est de prendre quelques responsabiliies. Comme je vous l'ai deja dit, j'ai beaucoup regrette d'etre President, car j'aurais voulu defendre les interets de mon pays qui sont gravement engages dans cette question. Cela indique, et je le s.ens moi-meme, que je ne suis peut-etre pas tout a fait impartial. Je prends le texte meme de la declaration tel qu'il nous a ete transmis par la Commission. n est dit: "... reconnaissant l'importance de la declaration qui figure au Chapitre XI de la Charte, notamment en ce qui concerne la paix et la securite mondiales ..." Ce sont les termes memes de I'Article 18 et des dispositions concernant les questions qui exigent la majorite des deu~ tiers. A mon sens, la resolution devrait incontestablement recueillir les deux . tiers des voix. Les auteurs de la resolution ont d'ailleurs reproduit dans la resolution les terroes de l'Article 18. S'il y a une objection a cette proposition, je suis oblige de la mettre aux voix. Que1qu'un demande-t-ille vote? These words actually occur in Artice 18, and refer to questions requiring a two-thirds majority. To my mind, the resolution before us undoubtedly requires a two-third majority. Moreover, the authors of the resolution have used the actual words of Article 18. If there is any objection to this proposal, I shall have to put it to the vote. Does anybody want a vote? Mr. LOPEZ (Colombia): I should like to have a vote.

We shall take a roll-call. I ask the Assembly whether the question should be settled by a twothirds majority. A vote was taken by roll-call. The PRESIDENT (translated from French): The following is the result of the vote: Votes for: Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Le PRESIDENT: Je vais rnettre aux voix la questio.n. de sa~oir si l'~semblee estime que cette proposItIOn dOlt recueilhr les deux tiers des voix. Je suis oblige de poser cette question avant le vote, sinon cela creerait un cas de conscience trop grave pour les representants. M. THOMAS (Royaume-Uni) (traduit de l'anglais): Monsieur le President, puis-je expliquer que ma demande d'une majorite des deux !i~~ s'appliquait seu~ement a la proposition mItlale, et non aux dIvers amendemcnts qui y ont ete apportes? . , M. LOPEz (Colombie) (traduit de l~ang1ais) : Je desirerais que cette question soit mise aux voix. Le PRESIDENT: Nous allons proceder a l'a~pe! nominal. Je consulte l'AssembIee pour. s~vOlr SI la question doit etre resoluea la maJontc des deux tiers. Il est procede au vote par appe1 nominal. Le PRESIDENT: Void le resultat du vote: \ . Votent pour: Australie, 'Belgique, Br6il, Canada, Costa-Rica, TcMcoslovaquie, Dane- Decision: The two-thirds majorit), rule was required. The PRESIDHTT (translated from French): The amendment farthest removed from the original text is that suhmitted by Cuba, and it should therefore be the first to be put to the vote. It proposes to subRtitute for the words "Recommends that the Economic and Social Couwi! .. ," the following text: uThe General Assembly recommends to the Members having or a~suming responRibilities for the administration of Non-SeH-Governing Territories to convene conferences of represen- ' tatives of Non-Self-Governing Peoples chosen or preferably elected in such a way that the representation of the people will be ensured to the extent that the particular conditions of the territory concerned permit, in order that the letter and spirit of Chapter XI of 'the Charter may be observed and the wishes and aspirations of the Non-Sdf-Governing PeClple~ may be expressed." :Mr. PEREZ CISNEROS (Cuba) (translated from French): I ask for it roll-call. 11otes for: Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Egypt, El Salvador, Honduras, Lebanon, MeXico, New Zealand, NQrway, Panama, Paraguay, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Sweden, Turkey, United Kingdom, Uruguay. Votes against: Australia, Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, Colombia, Ethiopia, France Guatemala, India, Iraq, Poland Ulerainia~ Soviet Socialist Republic, Uniod of South Africa, United States of America, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Yugoslavia. 4bstention.s:. Afghanistan, Belgium, Chile, Ch:n.a, DOIllIUIcan Republic, Ecuador, Greece,· HaItI, Iceland, Iran, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Nicaragua, Peru, Philippine Re- public, Venezuela. Decision: The amendment was adopted by twenty-three votes to fourteen with seventeen abstentions. ' Dfoe:si.,m: La majorite des deux tiers est requise. Le PRESIDENT: L'amendement qui s'eloigne le plus du texte original est celui de Cuba. C'est done le premier qui doit etre mis aux voix. n consiste a remplacer le paragraphe comrnen- c;ant par les mots: "Recommande que le Conseil economique et social ..." par le texte suivant: "L'AssembIee generale recommande a taus les Membres qui ant ou qui assurnent l'admi- nistration de territoires non autonomes, de convoquer des conferences de representants de peuples non autonomes, choisis, ou pre- ferablement elus, de fa~on a assurer la repre- sentation du peuple dans la mesure ou le permettront les conditions particulieres du .territoire considcre, afin de realiser l'esprit et la lettre du Chapitre XI de la Charte et de permettre ainsi aux sentiments et aux aspira- tions des populations non autonomes de s'ex- primer." M.· PEREZ CISNEROS (Cuba): le demande l'appel nominal: Votent pour: Argentine, Bolivie, Bresil, Canada, Costa-Rica, Cuba, Tchecoslovaquie, Danemark, Egypte, Salvador, Honduras, Liban, Mexique, Nouvelle-Zelande, Norvege, Panama, Paraguay, Arabie sa.oudite, Syrie, Suede, Tur- quie, Royaume-Uni, Uruguay. Votent contre: Australie, Republique socialiste sovictique de Bielorussie, Colombie, Ethiopie, Fra.nce, Guatemala, Inde, Irale, Pologne, Re- publique socialiste sovietique d'Ukraine, Un~on Sud-Africaine, Etats-Unis d'Amerique, Umon des Republiques socialistes sovietiques, Yougo- slavie. S'abstiennent: Afghanistan, Belgique, Chili, Chine, RepubEque Dominicaine, Equateur, Grece, HaIti, Islande, Iran, Liberia" Lu~em­ b()urg, Pays-Bas, Nicaragua, Perou, Repubhque des Philippines, Venezuela. Decision: L'amendement est adoptB par vingt-trois voix contre quatorze, et dix-se!Jf abstentions. Je donnerai une indication a ma delegation: cet amendement me parait telIement condliant que je lui conseille de voter en sa faveur.

The next item on the agenda is the report of the Fourth Committee on the transmission of information by Members under Article 73 e of the Charter (annex 78). I call upon Mr. Lisicky, Rapporteur. Mr. LISICKY (Czechoslovakia), Rapporteur (tmnslated from French): The resolution contained in document A/249 concerns the transmission of statistical and other information of a technical nature relating to Non-Self-Governing Territories, as provided in Chapter XI of the Charter. In accordance with Article 73 e, Members of the United Nations who have the responsibility of the administration of such territorie~ have agreed to transmit such data regularly to the Secretary-General for information purposes. The draft resolution before you was carried in the Committe by twenty-three votes to twelve, with three abstentions. With a view to utilizing the information received by the Secretary-General, the recommendation provides for the establishment of an ad hoc committee with a membership as suggested in paragraph 4 of our conclusions. If this Vote contre: Australie. SJabstiennent: Mghanistan, Republique soda- liste sovietique de Bielorussie, Chili, Colombie, Tchecoslovaquie, Republique Dominicaine, Equateur, Ethiopie, France, Grece, Guatemala, Islande, Iran, Liberia, Pays-Bas, Nicaragua, Perou, Republique socialiste sovietique d'Ukraine, Union Sud-Africaine, Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques, Yougoslavie. Decision: La resolution est adoptee flar trente et une voix contre une, et vingt et une abstentions. 183. Transmission des renseignements communiques per les Membres en application de I'Article 73 e de la Char~'e. Rapport de la Quatrieme Commission. Resolution (documents A/249 et A/249/Add.l) Le PRESIDENT: L'ordre du jour appelle la discussion du rapport de la Ql1atricme Com- mission sur la transmission des renseignemcnts communiques par les Membres en application de l'Article 73 e de la Charte (annexe 78). Je donne la parole aM. Lisick~' .. Rapporteur. M. LISICKY (TchCcoslovaquie), Rapporteur: La resolution qui fait l'objet du doc~ment AI 249 concerne la transmission des renselgnements statistiques et autres, de nature te.chnique, relatifs aux territoires non autonomes VISes par le Cha- pitre XI de la Charte. Les Membres qui ont la responsabilite. d'a~­ rninistrer ces territoires ant, en vertu des dISpOSI. tions de l'Artic1e 73 e de la Charte, accepte de communiquer regulierement au Se~retaire gene- ral, atitre d'information, les renselgnements en question. #., • Le proiet de resolutIOn qUI vou~ est SO?mIS .a ete adopte en commission par vmgt-trOls VOlX contre douze, et trois abstentions. En vue d'utiliser les renseignements re<;us par le Secretaire general, la recommandation prevo~t la creation d'un comite ad hoc dont la composl- fon est indiquee au point 4 de nos conclUSIOns. {'Assemblee sera donc appelee) si dIe approuve " (4) Invites the Secretary-General to con- vene, some weeks before the opening of the second session of the General Assembly, an ad hoc committee composed in equal num- bers of representatives of the Members trans- mitting information under Article 73e of the Charter and of representatives of Members elected, by the General Assembly at this ses- sion, on the basis of an equitable geographical distribution; " (5) Invites the Secretary-General to re- quest the Food and Agriculture Organization, the International Labour Organization, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, and the World Health Organization and the International Trade Organization, when constituted, to send rep- resentatives in an advisory capacity to the meeting of the ad hoc Committee; " (6) Invites the ad hoc Committee to ex- amine the Secretary-General's summary and analysis of the information transmitted under· Article 73e of the Charter with a view to aid- ing the General Assembly in its consideration of this infonnation, and with a view to mak- ing recommendations to the General Assembly regarding the procedures to be followed in the future and the means of ensuring that the ad- vice, expert knowledge and experience of the specialized agencies are used to the best ad- vantage."

I call upon Mr. Blom, representative of the Netherlands. Mr. BLOM (Netherlands): The Netherlands delegation has stressed in committee that, in the international sphere, no better means exists to promote the well-being of the inhabitants of Non-Self-Governing Territories, than, first, cooperation of the governments and administrations concerned, which could be established and developed most profitably on a regional basis, and which will allow the peoples themselves to b~ associated in this work; secondly, by oQtaining comparative reports and studies of experts in every field suitable to raising the standards of living of the peoples concerned. Such reports and studies could most successfully be made by expert organizations such as the specialized agencies, whose co-operation in this matter has to be requested and discussed. Sous le benefice de ces observations prelimi· naires, je me contenterai de lire la recommandation a partir du paragraphe 4. Les trois premiers paragraphes ont ete adoptes a l'unanimite par la Commission. HL'Assembtee generate: . . . . . . . . . "4) Invite le Secretaire general a reunir que1ques semaines avant l'ouverture de la deuxieme session de l'Assemblee generale un comite ad hoc compose d'un nombre egal de representants des Membres transmettant des renseignements en application de l'Article 73 e de la Charte et de representants des Membres elus par l'AssembIee generale a cette session, sur la base d'une repartition geographique.equitable; "5) Invite le Secretaire general ademander a l'Organisation pour l'alimentation et l'agriculture, l'Organisation internationale du Travail, l'Organisation des Nations Unies pour l'education, la science et la culture, l'Organisation mondiale de la sante et l'Organisation internationale du commerce, une fois constituees, d'envoyer a titre consultatif des representants ala reunion du comite ad hoc. "6) Invite le comite ad hoc a examiner les resumes et analyses faits par le Secretaire general des renseignements transmis en application de l'Article 73 e de la Charte, en vue d'assister l'Assemblee generale dans son examen de ces renseignements et de faire des recommandations a l'AssembIee generale concernant la procedure a suivre a l'avenir et les moyens d'assurer que les avis, les connaissances techniques et l'experience des institutions spccialisees soient utilises au mieux." Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a M. Blom, representant des Pays-Bas. M. BLOM (Pays~Bas) (traduit de l'anglais) : La delegation des Pays-Bas a attire l'attention de la Commission sur deux moyens que, dans le domaine international, elle estime les plus propres a favoriser le progres des populations de territoires qui ne s'administrept pas encore eux· memes. Il s'agit: prernierement, d'une collab<r ration des gouvernements et desautorites administratives interesses, collaboration qui pOUlTait ~tre etablie et dcveloppee avec le plus d'avanta~ ges sur une base regionale et qui pennettrait aux populations elles-m€mes de participer aux mesures prises; deuxiemement, de rapports et d'etudes comparatives d'experts dans tous les domaines, propres a favoriser l'amelioration du niveau de vie des peuples interesses. Il serait bon que ces rapports et ces etudes soient l'reuvre d'organismes speciaux comme les institutions specialisees, dont il convient de demander et de discuter la collaboration en la matiere. The draft resolution proposed by the Fourth Committee, as it now stands, and particularly paragraphs 4, 5 and 6, which invite the Secretary-General to convene an ad hoc committee before the next session of the General Assembly to examine the Secretary-General's report on the information transmitted in accordance with Article 73e of the Charter, is, in our opinion, not a desirable procedure. The recommendation of convening this committee has political implications; their conformity with the basic character of Chapter XI of the Charter is subject to grave doubt. Moreover, more important still, the recommendation will not serve the best interests of the populations concerned. We feel that it would be regrettable indeed if international co-operation in the interest of the populations in Non-Se1f~Governing Territories were endangered by aiming, if only implicitly, at interference with the development of the internal political organization of the territories concerned. During the debate on the Philippine resolution, the representative of the United States, among others, very eloquently and very convincingly explained why such interference is not in accordance with the Charter. The reasons which he mentioned are equally applicable in this case. Moreover, it would not only be contrary to the Charter, but it would also hamper the peaceful development of the populations, and might well impair good relations. For these reasons, the Netherlands delegation\ is not in favour of establishing the ad hoc committee proposed. And may we remind the General Assembly that it has often been rightly stressed that the very able Secretariat should be considered well qualified for the task of reporting to the General Assembly on the information transmitted in accordance with Article 73e of the Charter? The Netherlands delegation feels quite justified in taking this view, because, as is well known, the Netherlands Government intends to give the overseas territories of our Kingdom full self-government in the near future. We therefore look at this matter from a detached point of view. As stated before, the Netherlands delegation is opposed to paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 of this proposal. The first part of the resolution, however, is very valuable, and we fully agree with its contents. To give us the opportunity to express this

I call upon Mr. Garcia Granados, representative of Guatemala. Mr. GAReIA GRANADOS (Guatemala) (translated /;om Ji'renl:h): The delegation of Guatemala asks the Asscmbly tu note that in document A/249, paragraph 2, of the resolution, after the words "British Honduras" there is a reference to the journal of the United Nations, No. 55, 10 December 1946, Supplement No. 4, pages 79 and 80. I he delegation of Guatemala desires to repeat before the Assembly the statemeut which was inserted in the said Supplement of the Journal of the United Nati.ons on the page mentioned above. At the time of the discussion, in the Fourth Committee, of the draft resolution now before the Assembly, our representative abstained from voting, and emphasized that he had done so because, in this resolution, the territory of Belize, incorrectly called British Honduras, is mentioned as a British possession. He added that he wished to prevent his affirmative vote from being interpreted later as the recognition of a de facto situation in this territory, since Guatemala does not and cannot recognize the sovereignty of Great Britain over the territory of Belize. I must add that the United Kingdom representative stated that his Government had proposed to submit the dispute to the International Court of Jusice, but that Guatemala had not yet accepted this proposal. Our representative replied that Guatemala in turn had proposed that the Court should try the case ex aequo et bono in confonnity with Article 38 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice. In repeating before the .A$embly the various statements made on this subject by our representative in the Fourth Committee, the delegation of Guatemala does not attempt to open a controversy on the substance of the dispute existing with Great Britain. It merely desires to affirm specifically its position in this matter, although, in the same meeting of this Committee and in connexion with the incident already mentioned, the representative of Mexico had declared, and the representative of no country entered any arguments to the contrary, that it must be clearly understood that "the adoption of the resolution in no way implies the recognition of the sovereignty of any Power over any territory whatsoever. It has only the practical significance of indicating which were the de Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a M. Garcia Granados, representant du Guatemala. :M. CARd\. CRANADOS (Guatemala) : La dele~ gation du Guatemala prie l'Assemblee de vouloir bien observer que, dans le document A/249, au paragraphe 2 de la resolution, il y a une note en bas de page relative au Hondura~ britannique, laquelle renvoie au Journal de::; Nations Unies, No 55, du 10 clecembre 1946, Supplement No 4, pages 79 et 80. La delegation du Guatemala di~~:ire rcpeteI devant l'AssemblCe la declaration qui fut inseree dans ledit Supplement du Journal des Nations Unies, aux pages deja mentionnees. Lors de la discussion, a la Quatrieme Corn· mission, du projet de resolution qui est mainte· nant soumis a l'AssemblCe, notre representant, s'abstint de voter et souligna qu'il l'avait fait parce que, dans cette resolution, le territoire cl ~ Belize incorrectement appeIe Honduras britannique etait mentionne comme possession britallnique. Il ajouta qu'il voulait eviter qu'un vote affirmatif de sa part put plus tard etre interprete comme la reconnaissance d'une situation existnnt de fait dans ce territoire, puisque le Guatem3J.a ne reconnalt pas, ni ne peut reconnaitre la souverainete de la Grande-Bretagne sur le lerritoire de Belize. Je dois dire aussi que le representant du Royaume-Uni prit la parole pour signaler que son Gouvernement a propose de soumettre le differend a la Cour internationale de Justice, ;nais que le Guatemala n'a pas encore accepte cette proposition. A quoi notre representant repondit que le Guatemala, a son tour, a propose que la Cour puissc juger ex aequo et bono, conformement a I'Article 38 du Statut de la Cour internationale de Justice. En repetant devant l'AssembIee les diverses declarations faites sur ce sujet par notre representant au sein de la Quatrieme Commission, la delegation du Guatemala ne pretend pas ouvrir une polemique sur le fond de la controverse existant avec la Grande-Bretagne. Eile veut seulement marquer specifiquement sa position dans cette affaire, bien que, dans la meme seance de ladite Commission et apropos de l'incident deja cite, le represcntant du Mexique ait declare, sans que le representant d'aucun pays n'eut argumente contre, que 1'0n doit entendre clairement que ''l'adoption de la resolution ri'a, en aucune fac;on, le caractere d'une reconnaissance de la souverainete d'une Puissance quelconque sur un territoire quelconque. ElIe n'a qu'une signification pratique qui est de rappeler quclles sont les Le PRESIDENT: Je donne la parole a M. Thomas, representant du Royaume-Uni.

I cnll upon Mr. Thomas, representative of the United Kingdom. Mr. THOMAS (United Kingdom): I confirm that the view of the representative of Guatemala is correct in that the return of information, under Article 73 of the Charter, carried no implications with regard to sovereignty. It is undoubtedly a fact that the United Kingdom is the administering authority in British Honduras, and therefore we are under an obligation to return the information which is mentioned in the paper before us. M. THOMAS (Royaume-Uni) (traduit de l'anglais): En declarant que la transmission d'informations prevue par l'Article 73 de la Charte n'a aucune incidence sur la souverainete nationale, le representant du Guatemala a exprin1c une opinion, qui, je tiens a. le confirmer, est exacte. C'est un fait incontestable que le Royaume-Uni est l'autorite qui aSSure l'administration du Honduras britannique. 11 s'ensuit que nQus avons l'obligation de communiqueI' les rense~gnements prevus dans le texte qui nous est soumlS. Cette controverse nous est familiere. Il s'agit d'une contestation relative au trace de la frontU:re et qui a surgi ala suite d'un traite datant de 1859; je pense comme le representant du Guatemala que c'est une affaire qui pourrait parfaitement ctre regMe al'amiable. Je Sals que le Secretaire d'Etat britannique aux Affaires etrangeres sera tout dispose a entamer l'examen de cette question par la voie diplomatique ordinaire et j'espere qu'elle pourra etre reglce al'amiable. Comme vous le savez, nous avons annonce que nous etions disposes a. nous en remettre ala Cour internationale pour le reglement de cette affaire et a nOlls incliner devant sa decision. Le representant du Guatemala, toutefois, a demande que cette affaire soit traitee, non en appliquant les regles ordinaires du droit, mais ex aequo et bono. Pour notre part, nous ne voyons pas de raisons de nous ecarter ainsi des regles du droit normalement applicables a un traite; mais, ctant donne le ton que le representant du Guatemala a donne a son intervention sur ce sujet, et je tiens a lui en exprimer ma sincere gratitude, il ne me paralt pas douteux que cette question pourra ctre reglee aisement. Je passe maintenant a la resolution que nous avons a examiner. Comme le representant des Pays-Bas, je pense que cette resolution 'se compose d'une partie qui est bonne et d'une partie qui est mauvaise, ou peut-Hre, devrais-je dire, d'une partie qui est bonne et d'une partie qui l'est moins. J'accepte tres volontiers, au nom de la delegation du Royaume-Uni, les paragraphes 1, 2 et 3. Les paragraphes 4, 5 et 6 soulevent la question d'un comite ad hoc charge d'examiner les renseignements qui seraient fournis aux termes de l'Article 73 e. Une difficulte preliminaire se presente du fait qu'il n'est guere possible pour cctte Assemblee de constituer un comite ad hoc pour la prochaine Assemblee. Chaque Assemblee doit decider elle-mcme de l'organisation de ses propres travaux et aussi longtemps que les representants The dispute is a familiar ouc. It is a boundary dispute arising out of a treaty of 1859, and I share the view of the representative of Guatemala that this matter can be settled quite amicably. I know that His Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs will be very glad indeed to take up the question through the ordinary diplomatic channels. And I hope that it can be amicably settled. AB you recall, we have announced our willingness to have the matter remitted to the International Court for settlement, and to abide by its judgment. He has asked, however, that it should be treated, not by the ordinary rules of law, but ex aequo et bono. We have seen no reason for departing in such a manner from the rules of raw normally applicable to a treaty, but in view of the tone in which the representative of Guatemala approached tlus matter, for which I thank him very sincerely, I have no doubt tllat this question can easily be settled. I turn now to the resolution before us. Like the representative of the Netherlands, I think this resolution consists of a good part and a bad part, or perhaps I should say one good part and a less good part. I very readily accept, on behalf of the United Kingdom delegation, paragraphs 1, 2 and 3. Paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 raise the question of an ad hoc committee to examine the information provided under Article 73e. There is a preliminary difficulty~ in that it is hardly possible for tllis Assembly to set up an ad hoc comnlittee for the next Assembly. Each Assembly must conduct its own business, and until representatives have assembled and their credentials have been examined, I hardly see But I do not wish to base my argument on purely constitutional grounds. There are other objections of a more important character. On 9 February, a resolution was passed by this Assembly at its London session, disposing of the treatment of information under Article 73e of the Charter. It was then decided that this information should be summarized by the Secretary- General in his report, and most of us thought that there the matter was at an end. What would happen under that procedure is that the Secretary-General, with the help of his Secretariat, would examine the information transmitted and prepare a summary. The Secretariat is composed of experts in their particular fields, than whom there a few persons better qualified to deal with this material. It would be included in the Secretary-General's report. Debate could arise on it, and it would then be transmitted to a committee of the Assembly where it would be examined in minute detail. If the Fourth Committee, supposing it was the Fourth Committee to which it would be transmitted, desired to set up another committee or an ad hoC committee, I suppose it could be done. I submit that this is the right way to deal with the information, and it was the way decided upon at the London session of the Assembly. I submit, therefore, that we should not introduce new machinery now. The reasons given for establishing the ad hoc committee are as follows: in the first place, that the examination of this information IJeeds experts. But what better experts are there than those already in the Secretariat? They have been carefully chosen for this work, and I am sure that we can all feel confident of their ability to discharge it properly. Think of the members of the ad hoc committee Iyou would choose, if this resolution were adopted, and ask yourselves whether any of them would be likely to do this work better than the Secretariat itself. That disposes, I think, of the argument that some other body of experts is needed. The second argument which has been advanced, not tonight, but in the Committees, is that this work would have a political character, and that, therefore, it would not be appropriate for the Secretariat to deal with it. The idea that ,the examination of the information under Article 73e has a political character; is one that the United Kingdom delegation must strenuously resist. The article in question states that the information is to be statistical or other informa- It is out of the question that the examination of such information could have a political character. That is deliberately excluded by the article, and we must keep it excluded. Many of us have come to feel from our long discussions in the Fourth Committee that if we were to appoint an ad hoc committee a political character would be injected into this work, a political character which is not intended by the authors of the Charter. We feel it essential, therefore, to come back to the Charter, and for that purpose, we think it would be better that this examination should be conducted, as was intended by the London resolution, by the Secretariat. The result of it will come before the General Assembly in the form of the Secretary-General's report and be referred to a committee. It is open to the Assembly to do whatever it pleases with the information, within the terms of the Charter. For these reasons, I hope the Assembly will agree to accept paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 of the resolution, which fulfil a very useful purpose and are the result of long deliberations in the Committee, and will reject paragraphs 4, 5 and 6.

We are not getting along very fast. So far, we have examined only two points of our agenda this afternoon. There are still twenty-four items. In any case, we must give up hope of finishing today, but if we continue at this rate we shall not finish tomorrow either. Many representatives are leaving, and the heads of delegations wish to leave. Consequently, we must make an effort to expedite the debates. There are now three representatives still on my list: the representatives of Cuba, of the United States of America, and of Argentina. I should have liked to finish this item before dinner and adjourn the meeting at 9 o'clock. If, however, the speeches of the representatives on my list are going to be long, we shall have to listen to them after dinner. If the paragraphs of the resolution are adopted, we must elect eight members. Mr. PEREZ CISNEROS (Cuba) (translated from French): Mr. President, I should like to make my statement now. Mr. AROE (Argentina) (translated from French): My remarks will be very brief.

We might hear these three speakers before dinner, if their speeches are not long, and waive the interpretation. Mr. PEREZ CISNEROS (Cuba) (translated from French): The -proposal before the . l Le PRESIDENT: Nous n'avan~ons pas tres vite. Nous avons examine deux points seulement de notre ordre du jour cet apres-midi; il en reste vingt-quatre. De toute fa~on, nous devons renoncer a en terminer aujourd'hui, mais si nous continuons a la meme allure, nous n'arrlverons pas a terminer demain non plus. De nombreux representants s'en vont, petit a petit. Les chefs des delegations desirent partir. Par consequent, nous devons faire un effort pour· Mter la fin des discussions. ~ Au point ou nous en sommes, trois representants restent inscrits sur ma liste: celui de Cuba, celui des Etats·Unis d'Amerique et celui de l'Argentine. J'aurais voulu essayer de terminer ce point avant le dlner et de suspendre la seance a 21 heures. Cependant, si les discours des representants inscrits doivent etre longB, nom devrons les entendre apres le diner. . Si les paragraphes de la resolution sont votes, nous devrons elire huit membres~ M. PEREZ OISNEROS (Cuba): Monsieur le, President, je desirerais pouvoir faire ma declaration des maintenant. M. ARoE (Argentine): La declaration que j'ai a faire sera tres courte. Le PRESIDENT: Peut-etre pourrions-nous entendre ces trois orateurs avant le diner, si leurs discours ne sont pas trop longs et si nous Iious paBSons de l'interpretation. . M. PEREZ CISNEROS (Cuba): La proposition qui vous est soumise et qui a ete approuvee par Not only have these governments generously accepted obligations spontaneously at San Frar~­ cisco, but the majority, and perhaps nearly all, have communicated this information. What have we done with the information? We have filed it among the records of our delegations. We have had this information in our hands and looked at it, but no committee, not even a sub-committee, during the first part of the session of this AsSembly, has given this information the attention it deserved; it has remained in our drawers and in our brief-cases. We must decide whether we shall continue to deal with these documents in this manner. The Fourth Committee is awaiting our decision. In its Sub-Committee 2, it was asked whether we shall limit ourselves to receiving these papers, binding them, burying them in the archives and filing them away on our library shelves. It is clear that we cannot do this. We must deal with them in a manner worthy of them. These reports must fulfil the principles of the Charter which require that the peoples of the Non-Self-Governing Territories-those millions of people whose voices are not heard in this Assembly-be permitted to develop and become self-governing. As was already stated during the discussions of the Sub-Committee, it would be an insult to the authors of the most generous chapter of the Charter not to utilize the information supplies. It must be recognized that all the delegations have accepted the obligations of Article 73; they have submitted information; all of them wish The Secretariat might find itself in a difficult situation; it might be embarrassed, in fact, and The General Assembly is an entity. It is a constitutive body which subsists from year to year, and indeed we trust that it will have a long life. Consequently, the General Assembly prepares its own work; this is quite normal and quite possible. It is so normal that the delegations which opposed this plan used this argument and have just approved a recommendation submitted to the General Committee for the establishment of a committee which will draw up a report on the rules of procedure which we shall employ for the second session of the Assembly. Here again, we recall the committee which prepared the General Assembly, although it was created by a constituent assembly such as that of San Francisco. Consequently, it is quite possible, and we have all the necessary precedents. Now let us consider the advantages and disadvantages. I can see only one disadvantage-namely, that this committee has not yet been set up and that , we are liable to lose many a quarter of an hour before it is elected. Of course, we are all tired by now, and we must perhaps consider this disadvantage. The advantages are, however, very great, for this committee is elected by the Assembly on an equitable basis; it is composed of members of governments. It is perfectly free to use the information supplied by the governments. This committee will have the advantage of attracting the interest of the nations which are perhaps not directly concerned, thus giving to Chapter XI of the Charter all the importance, all the power which we desire that it should possess. This committee is well balanced with respect to its composition and, it will above all, Voyons maintenant les avantages et les desavantages du comite et voyons d'abord si celui-ci peut-etre cree. Il peut l'etre. Il suffit pour eviter toute autre discussion, de se referer a l'article 100 du reglement interieur provisoire de l'Assemblee generale qui dit: "L'Assemblee generale peut constituer les commissions et organismes subsidiaires qu'elle juge necessaires pour l'accomplissement de sa tache." Voyons, d'autre part, s'il y a eu des antecedents, car il est bien entendu que l'Assemblee generale ne peut pas preparer un comite pour une autre Assemblee generale. L'Assemblee generale est une entite; dIe forme un corps constitutif qui subsiste d'annee en annte et nous esperons qu'elle vivra tres longtemps. Par consequent, c'est l'Assemblee generale qui prepare son propre travail et ceci est tout a fait normal et tout a fait possible. C'est tellement normal que les delegations qui s'opposent a ce projet se servent de cet argument et viennent d'approuver une recommandation presentee au Bureau en vue de creer line commission qui etablira, pour la deuxieme. session de l'Assemblee generale, un rapport sur les regles de procedure que nous utiliserons. La aussi, nous nous souviendrons de la commission qui prepara l'AssembIee generale, quoiqu'elle soit nee d'une Assemblee constituante comme celIe de San-Francisco. Par consequent, cela est tout a fait possible et il y aura tous les antecedents voulus. Voyons maintenant le chapitre des avantages et des desavantages. Je ne vois qu'un desavantage, c'est que ce comite n'est pas encore cree et que nous pouvons perdre quelques quarts d'heure avant qu'il soit elu. Evidemment, actuellement, nous sommes tous fatigues, i1 faut peut-ctre considerer ce desavantage; mais les avantages sont tres grands, car ce comite est elu par l'Assemblee sur une base equitable; il est compose de membres de Gouvernements; il pourra utiliser avec toute la liberte possible les renseignemeI).ts qui seront fournis par les Gouvernements. Ce comite aura 1'avantage d'interesser les nations qui ne sont peut-ctre pas d~rectement interessees et ainsi de donner au Chapltre XI de la Charte toute l'importance, toute la force que nous voulons voir lui donner. Ce comite est tres equilibre quant a sa composition, et il aura avant to~t le grand avantage de liberer le Secr€;- Only one sentence might be thus regarded; it is said that questions relating to the trusteeship system must be decided by a two-thirds majority. But the question before us is not one relating to the trusteeship system within the meaning of Chapters XII and XIII of the Charter; it is a question within the meaning of Chapter XI. Rule 78 of the rules of procedure therefore does not apply. To apply the twothirds majority rule, it would be necessary to have resort to rule 79 and to create a new category. The two-thirds majority would be necessary for the creation of this category. The question is very important and I must insist on several points. First of all, the committee is only to be set up for one meeting, with a view to preparing the work of the second session of the Assembly. Consequently, the committee is destined from its very inception, to be shortlived. Naturally, if the Assembly, during its second session, considers it advisable, it might confer immortality upon the committee, but only if all the members agree. On the other hand, this committee could deal only with provisional questions. I invite you to read once again paragraph 6 of the resolution, which is as follows: "Invites the ad hoc committee to examine the Secretary-General's summary and analysis of the information transmitted under Article 73 e of the Charter with a view to aiding the General Assembly in its consideration of this information, and with a yiew to making recommendations to the General Assembly regarding the procedures to be followed in the future and the means of ensuring that the advice, expert knowledge and experience of the specialized agencies are used to the best advantage." This committee will have only a few it~ms to Lorsque nous allons visiter le directeur d'une entreprise, et lorsque c'est le secretaire seulement qui nous re«;oit, nous ne sommes pas satisfaits; nous pn5fererions etre re«;us par le directeur luimeme. La delegation cubaine propose que ce soit le directeur de l'entreprise qui re«;oive les renseignements et non pas le secretaire. Je ne veux pas en dire plus pour la dCfense de ce projet tres simple et qui recevra, je pense, l'accueil le plus enthousiaste de la part de l'Assemblee. Cependant, comme nous discutons constamment les questions de procedure, je voudrais aborder quelques points. Nous allons certainement voir surgir la question de savoir s'il s'agit d'un sujet important ou non. Tous les sujets que nous traitons ici sont importants. Evidemment, on pourrait defendre cette the:5e, mais il faut se reporter toujours a l'article 78 du reglement interieur. Je ne vois vraiment rien, dans cet article, qui puisse impliquer que la question dont il s'agit ici est importante. Dne seule phrase de cet article pourrait etre consideree ainsi; il est dit que les questions relatives au fonctionnement du regime de .tutelle demandent une majorite des deux tiers. Mais il n'y a pas ici une question relative au regime de tutelle visee par les Chapitres XII et XIII de la Charte; il y a une question directement visee par le Chapitre XI. L'article 78 du reglement interieur n'est done pas applicable. Si l'on voulait appliquer la regIe des deux tiers, il faudrait recourir al'article 79 et Creel' une nouvelle categorie. C'est pour la creation de cette categorie que sera necessaire la majorite des deux tiers. La question est tres importante. J'insisterai sur plusieurs points. D'abord, il ne s'agit. de creer un comite que pour une seance. Cette creation sera faite seulement pour prepareI' le travail de la deuxieme session de l'Assemblee. Par consequent, ce comite est voue, des sa naissance, a une courte existence. Evidemment, si l'Assemblee, au cours de sa deuxieme session, le juge opportun, elle pourra lui donner l'immortalite, mais seulement si tous les Membres sont d'accord. D'autre part, ce comite ne pourra traiter que des questions provisoires. Je vous invite arelire le paragraphe 6; il est ainsi con«;u: "Invite le comite ad hoc. a examiner les resumes et analyses faits par le Secretaire general des renseignements transmis en application de l'Article 73 e de la Charte, en vue d'assister l'Assemblee generale dans son examen de ces renseignements et de faire des recommandations aI'Assemblee generale concernant la procedure a suivre a l'avenir et les moyens d'assurer que les avis, les connaissances techniques et l'experience des institutions specialisees soient utilises au mieux." Ce comite aura tres peu de matiere a traiter Mr. DULLES (United States of America) : We all want this information that is transmitted to be live, valuable information. The question is how to make it so. We believe that the propo~al made in the resolution, which calls for transmission of information to the Secretary-General -which is in accordance with the Charter-so that a summary and analysis may be made by the Secretary-General for transmission to the Members before the second session of the Assembly, is the most practical way to handle the matter. If the Secretary-General and his staff are not competent to do it and require the services of a committee of sixteen people to help them, I think there is something wrong with the Secretariat. I cannot think of any more inefficient way of handling this information.than to surround the Secretariat with a special committee of sixteen persons. In my opinion, that will go very far towards burying this information and destroying its usefulness. It can be made useful if we have a trained, competent Secretariat to study the matter. On the basis of the information transmitted this year, we can judge that this involves a study of reports from eighty different States. If, in addition to the Secretariat, you would appoint a special committee of sixteen to deal with those eighty reports, I just cannot conceive that anything useful will come out for the next General Assembly. Mr. ARcE (Argentina): The Argentine delegation will abstain from voting on this question for the reasons given in the Committee, which are summarized in the note to paragraph 3 of the resolution.

We shall now proceed to vote, The representative of the Netherlands has asked that the vore should be split. We shall therefore vote first of all on paragraphs 1,2 and 3, by a show of hands, then Je rappelle aussi que cette proposition a ete presentee tout d'abord par le Secretariat, puis par la delegation eubaine; que, dans la Sous- Commission, elle a ete approuvee par dix voix contre dix; que, dans la Commission, cUe a ete adoptee par une majorite de vingt et une \foix contre douze; et que finalement, eUe prevoit la scule procedure vraiment recol!'lllandable: la creation d'un comite ad hoc. TeHes sont les raisons pour lesqueUes la delegation cubaine vous demande de voter pour sa proposition, qui est aussi ceUe du Bureau, creant le seul organisme provisoire capable d'utiliser au maximum les precieuses informations qu'ant si genereusement offert de fournir les Puissances caloniales. M. DULLES (Etats-Unis d'Amcrique) (ttaduit de l'anglais): Nous voulons tous que les renseignements communiques soient des renseignemcnts a jour et qui aient de la valeur. Des lOTS, la question qui se pose est ceUe-ci: comment faire pour qu'il en soit ainsi? Nous croyons que la resolution pToposee affre les moyens les plus pratiques d'y parvenir; eUe prevoit: que les renseignements seront communiques au Secretaire general, ce qui est confomle Et la Charte, et que le Secretaire general les resumera et les analysera, et que ce resume sera transmis aux Etats Membres avant la deuxieme session. Si le Secretaire general et son personnel ne peuvent s'acquitter de cette tache, et s'ils ont besoin pour cela des services d'un comite de seize membres, j'estime qu'il y a quelquc chose qui ne va pas au Secretariat. Je ne puis imaginer de plus mauvais moyen de traiter ces renseignements que d'adjoindre au Secretariat un comite special de seize membres. A mon avis, cette maniere de .procedeI' aurait pour dIet d'ensevelir en grande partie ces renseignements et de leur oter beaucoup de leur utilite. Or, ils oeuvent etre utiles si nous avons un Secretariat ~xperimente et competent qui les etudie. Les renseignements qui ant ete communiques cette annee montrent qu'il va faUoir etudier les rapports de quatre-vingts Etats. Si l'on ajoute au Secretariat un cornite special de seize membres pour s'occuper de ces quatre-vingts rapports, je ne puis imaginer ce qu'il pourra sortir d'utile de tout cela pour la prochaine Assemblee generale. M. ARcE (Argentine) (traduit de I'anglais) : La delegation de l'Argentine s'abstiendra de voter sur cette question, pour les raisgns qu'elle a exposees a la Commission et qui se trouvent resumees dans la note relative au paragraphe 3 de la resolution. Le PRESIDENT: Nous aUons proceder au vote. Le representant des Pays-Bas a. demand6 la division du vote. Nous aUons done voter tout d'abord sur les paragraphes 1, 2 et 3 ensemble, a main levee, puis sur les paragraphes 4, 5 Decision: The first three paragraphs of the resolution were adopted by forty-one votes to none, with four abstentions. A vote by roll-call was then taken on paragraphs, 4, 5 and 6.

The result of the vote is as follows; Votes for: Brazil, Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Egypt, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Philippine Republic, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Venezuela, Yugoslavia. Votes against: Australia, Belgium, Den,mark, Ecuador, France, Greece, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Swed,en, Union ,of South Africa, United Kingdom, United States of America, Uruguay. . Abstentioris: Mghal1istan, Argentina, Bolivia, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, New Zealand, Turkey. ., Decision: Paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 of the resolution were adojJted by twenty-eight votes to fifteen, with seven abstentions.

I suggest that we elect the eight members of the ad hoc Committee at tonight's meeting. In the intervals, between the votes, we could take the simpler items on the agenda so as not to lose too much time. The meeting rose at 8 p.m. SIXTY-FIFTH PLENARY MEE'r1NG Held on Saturday, 14 December 1946, at 9.15 p.m. CONTENTS Page 184-. Headquarters of the United Nations: report of the Permanent Headquarters Committee: resolutions 1370 185.'Arrangements required as a result of the establishment of the permanent headquarters of the United Nations in the United States of America: report of the Sixth Committee: resolution 1375 186. Budgetary and financial arrangements with the Specialized Agencies: report of the Fifth Committee: resolution 1376 Decision: Les trois premie1's paragraphes de la resolution sont adoptes par quarante et une voix sans opposition, et quatre abstentions. Il est procede au vote par appel nominal sur les paragraphes 4, 5 et 6. Le PRE.SIDENT: Le resultat du scrutin est le suivant: Votent pour: Bresil, Republique socialiste 50- vietique de Bi610russie, Canada, Chill, Chine, Colombie, Cuba, Republique Dominicaine, Egypte, Salvador, Ethiopie, Honduras, Inde, Iran, Irak, Liban, Mexique, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Republique des Philippines, Pologne, Arabie saoudite, Syrie, Republique socialiste sovietique d'Ukraine, Union des Republiques socialistes sovietiques, Venezu~la, Yougoslavie. Votent contre: Australie, Be1gique, Danemark, Equateur, France, Grece, Islande, Luxembourg, Pays-Bas, Norvege, Suede, Union Sud- Africaine, Royaume-Uni, Etats-Unis d'Amerique, Uruguay. S'abstiennent: Afghanistan, Argentine, Bolivie, Tchecoslovaquie, Guatemala, Nouve1le- Zelande, Turquie. Decision: Les paragrapher 4, 5J et 6 de la resolution sont adoptes par vingt-huit voix contre quinze, et sejJt abstentions. Il est procede au vote tl main levee mr l'et/.- semble du projet. Decision: Le projet de resolution est adopte dans son ensemble par vingt-sept voix contre sept, et treize abstentions. Le PRESIDENT: Je propose que nous procedions lors de la seance de nuit, a l'election de huit membres du Comite ad hoc. Nous pourrions proceder a ce vote tout en abordant, clans les intervalles, les points faciles de notre ordre elu jour, de fac;;on ane pas perdre trop de temps. La seance est levee a. 20 heures. SOIXANTE-CINQUIEME SEANCE PLENIERE Tenue le samedi 14 decembre 1946, a21 h. 15. TABLE DES MATIERES Pages 184. Siege des Nations Unies. Rapport de la Commission du siege permanent. Resolutions 1370 185. Arrangements necessites par l'etablissement aux Etats-Unis d'Ameriquc du siege permanent de l'Organisation des Nations Unies. Rapport de la Sixieme Commission. Resolution 1375 186. Relations budgetaires et financieres avec les institutions specialisees. Rapport de' la Cinqnieme Commission. Resolution .... 1~76