S/PV.17 Security Council

With regard to the adjournment, do 1 take it that members of the Council are agreed that this is the hour at which we should adjourn? 1 would suggest that the Conncil resume its·proceedings tomorrow at Il a.m. As that suggestion is agreèable to the mernbers, . it is adopted. 5EVENTEENTH MEETIi'JG Heid at Church House, Westminster, London on Tuesday, 12 February 1946, at 11 a.m. President: Mr. N. J..O. MAKIN (Australia). P1'esent: The representatives of the following countries: Australia, Brazil,Chîna., Egypt, France, Mexico,. Netherlands, Poland, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, United Kingdom, • United States of America. 3. Letter from the Head of the Yugoslav dcle- gation ta the Executive Secretary (U11- dated).2 Letter from the Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs of Yugoslavia ta the Secretary-GSl- eral dated 9 February 1946 (document S/8).3 4. Letter from the Heads of the Lebanese and Syrian delegations ta the Secretary-General dated 4 February 1946 (document S/5)" 5. Report by the Chairman of the Committee of Experts on the alteratioQS made by the Committee ID the provisional mIes. of pro- cedure of the Security Council (document S/6).5 66. Adoption of the agenda

The first item is the adoption of the agenda. 1 wish ta bring to the notice of the Cauncll that 1 have.received a letter from the Yugoslav delegation. This letter has been circulated, but it will need to be included as an item of the .agenda, so that the documents in ~other màtter that we shall require ta consider may be complete. Do 1 take it that it is the wish of the members of the Council that this letter should be included in the agenda as a document? The letter, of course, has reference to the admission· of Albania to membership of the United Nations. In.the absence of objection, 1 take it that the admission of this document is agreed ta. " 67. Continuation of discussion of· the let- ter from the Head of the Ukrainian SSR delegation 1 Mr. DIAZ (Mexico): Duringthe first month of its existence the Security Council·has been shaping its own life, and precedents are·being established in these sessions which will constitute the unwritten law that.will·govern the function- ing of this institution. Furthennore, upon these precedents will depend its failure as a great in- stitution, like the failure of the League of Na- tions, or its success as the outstanding institution which has .emerged from the most cruel and most inhumane war of the centuries. 2 Ibid., Annex 5. 8 Ibid., Annex5. •Ibid., Annex 9. • Ibid., Supplement No. 2, Annex.L On the other hand, the Security Council has to act, and to do that, it has to secure the facts and the knowledge which it needs in order to give correct decisions. It is important for the futilre of the United Nations, and for the success of the Security Council in discharging its great responsibilities, that every problem brought be- fore this important organ should be dealt with on its own merits, and that in every case a decision tending towards the solution of the problem should be given. The world at large will not. have confidence in the Security Coun- cil if, rightly or wrongly, public opinion gets the impression that it disposes of problems without proper con~ideration and without making a true effort to arrive at a solution wmch is just and ~ .compliance with the aims and purposes of the Charter. We have sensed here the lack of sufficient in- formation with regard to the Indonesian ques- tion. Many of the representatives have had to rely onnewspaper versions of the facts. Others have' stated that these versions are not a good source of information and are not fully reliable. 1 agree with that. We have had the benefit of the statements made by the representatives of the Ukrainian SSR, the United~gdom, the NetherIands and the Soviet Union. They are entitled to full credit and confidence, but in general these statements are of a conflicting na- ture. •Sorne of us, 1 am sure, feel that we entirely 'lack the possibility of making up our minds with regard to the merits of the case, in the light of Article 29 of the Charter empowers the Secu- rity Council to set up the necessary machinery to perlorm its functions. 1 believe that the first organwe shouldestablish is an instrument to produc~the necessary information as to the facts involved in any definite question brought bâore us. In view of the impossibility of making pro- vision at this moment for the creation· of an organ in the Security Council to enable it to secure the necessary information in general, 1 feè1 that, at least for the Indonesian question, we should be willing to establish a temporary commission to ascertain the facts and bring them to our notice. Then, and not until then, shall we be able to decide conscientiously on this im- portant matter. ' There is nothing in the Chartex: that,precludes the Security Council from investigating further the merits of tbis case by sending a commission. 'Ïnecomposition,the dlluesandthescope of functions of such"a commission should be studied with care, so that it ,would be an impartial source of information without interfering with the rights of the Dutch Government as a sov- ereign Pov:er orwith the very concrete func- tions of the British troops. Such a commission could, if the Dutch Government desired, be of help as a mediator in, the negotiations between the Dutch Government and the legitimate lead- ,ers of the nationalist movement. 1 believe that such a commission of the Security. CoundI, with its high authority, could contribute towards a satisfactory solution of this problem. The setting up of the said commission is not hcompatible with yecognition of the fact that the British Governmentand the Netherlands Government are aniInated by a spirit of justice and,good faith which, 1 feel sure, will always prevail in the exercise of their respective rights and functions as regards Il1donesia. 1 wouldIike especially to express the greatest satisfaction on the part of the Mexican delega- tion with the liberal words ofMr. van Kleffens when he stated that bis Government is fully aware of the natural and,just aspirations of the Indonesian people for self-government, and that, in such a spirit, negotiationS have been begun. Mr. BIDAULT (France) (translated from French): After so much hasaIready been said, lshould' like t(> confine myself to a brief state- "'ment, whichwill begin witha summary of the various points ofview which havebeen' stated. Secondly, the United Kingdom representative explained the reasons which prompted bis Gov- ernment to send troops to Java after the capitu- lation of Japan, and the circumstances in which the dispatch of these troops had .to be under- taken. It is clear from these explanations, as well as from all the statements we have heard, that it cannot he said that international peace and security are thereby endangered. It is aIso clear therefrom that the real difficulty, in any case, is to be sought in the internal situation in Indo- nesia and in the relations between the Indonesian population and the Netherlands Government. Thus, we have to turn to the statements made by the Netherlands representative if we wish to draw _anv conclusion from _this discussion. Mr. van Kleffens explained the spirit in which his Government approached the Indonesian prob- lem; he told the Council of the conversations Mw taking place and of the very extensive plans contemplated to put a stop -to the present-diffi- c~lties and to reach an agreement which would reconcile the authority of the sovereign Power with the legitimate aspirations of the Indonesian peoples. The Fre.nch delegation is of the opinion that such direct negotiations are the correct method of avoiding bloodshed, of reaching a truly peace- fui settlement, and of establiShing in Indonesia a regime in accordance with the principles laid down in the Charter, which it if; the duty of States Members of the United Nations to apply. Would the sending of a commission to the spot, as proposed by the Ukrainian delegation, serve any useful purpose; and, in particular, would such a commission advance tlie negotia- tions now in progress? The suggestion ought ta he studied from this point of view. Nobody can object, on grounds of principle, to the method of instituting enquiries on _the spot; it is a method which may have advantages provided that it cloes not prejudice the sovereignty. of a State Member of the United Nations and that it is used, as a rule, whenpeace is endangered. 1 should mention that hitherto this method has not been adopted when .we have been deal- ing with the other problems submitted to the Security· Council. It does not seem that, inthis particular case, it is likely ta promote pacifica- tion-in Indone.siaor to hasten the conclusion o.f the negotiatio11$. The Netherlands representa- tive has told usthat these negotiations are al- ready wclI advanced. There seems to be no Mr. 'QE FRElTAS-VALLE .(Brazil) : Mter the .long debate wehave had here, 1 first beg tg state, as·representative of Brazil, that 1 do not agree withthe notion that fact-finding ~ùmmis­ sions should nqt be sent ta any place in the world any time thatthe Security Council feels the need ta elarify a situation which may be, or Înay seem tobe dangerous ta peace. No national présage should be mixed up with the idea' of rec~iving one of them. On the other haud, l -'--=~--wuw~~vio-paint-~a~t:,:;tlIat~the".]!:razilia11--,,:Ge,r.-c ernment agrees with the opinion expressed here . by Mr. Stettinius that such commissions should be '.composed of competent individuals and not of Membe~States. . Confronted with the proposal of the Ukrain.. ian .. delegation to hàve such a commission sent ta Indonesia, l have todeelare that the debates which wehad here are far from demonstrating that the military.actions of the British troops in Indônesia have...been impropeï. These troops went there by command of General MacArthur, and will be withdrawn as soon as the mission which was entrusted to th.emis accompllshed. Very c1early, to my mind, their presence there does' not create a "state of threat· to the main- "ten.ance. of international peaceand security," as isargued in the letter of Mr. Manuilsky of 21 January;. and he did notask in bis speeches for their withdrawal. Ç>ur .debates have been, somehow, diverted .and Inany references have been made to Indo- nesian nationalisticaspirations~ Although the situation in Java has a domestic character,I am pleased, as representative of Brazil, .to .formulate wishes for the successful conclusion of the nego- tiations which are at present being conducted in Java. The very· positive statementof Mr. van .Kleffens on thesubject js a guarantee of the openmind with which,faithful to the idealsof the United Nations, the Dutch Government is ..facing the problem. l tlûnk the Council has the right to feelconfident about the issue. 1 now come tothe point with which we are immèdiately concerned. The Netherlands repre- sentative, referring to the events in Indonesia, said that there were teris of thousapds of armed and hostile people in that countryand-if 1 have correctly understood the French interpretation (otherwise 1 would as'}~ Mr. van Kleffens ta cor- rect me)_.-about 80,000 men, weIl armed and even equipped with aeroplanes, are involved. resse dizaines si vingt menl~.à.l~llr de dire Etats, nésien. qu'il la pôs What, then, is the problem with which we; are faced? Is this a typical case cif internal diffi.- culties? It cannot be said that this is a dispute between two States since there is as yet no Indo- nesian State. Is it, .then, a civil war? 1 think we are dealing with the case of a national movement -Mr. van Kleffensdid not deny this-which, owing to well-known circlLTI1Stances,has assumed the nature of an armed struggle. What does the Netherlands Government pro- pose to do with regard to thes~. 80,000 armed men, who are tindoubtedly backed up by mil- lions of inhabitants? Are they going to be recog- nized as the armed forces' o~ the Indonesial1 people? Or,are they going to be disarmed? ln the latter case, it,will be necessary to fight them. This question, on the answer to which the situa- tion in Indonesia largely depends, has remained unanswered. It has'been said that negotiations are now proceeding, and that the Security Council could be satisfied with information. It isall very weIl to be informed, but who isgoing to supply the information to the Council? Will it bethe two parties concerned, as in the case between the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Iran? If so, who will be the second party? If itis the Indonesian people, who will represent. it? The leaders of the naticmal movement, ashas been suggested?But wOlùd' they enjoy rights equiva- lent to those of the oiherparty in submitting their observations? néerlandais hommes eux comme bien va n'a beaucoup que le formations. par ce les conde qui ment.national ront-ils pour présenter leurs ~ The use of Japanese troops has been ju~tilled onhumanitariangrounds.But. the Polish, dele- gation would have pref~rred a clear promise t() the effect that the Japanese troops would 1:Je dis- ses féré Mr. VAN KLEFFENS (Netherlands): The statements .1 have heard,both today and yester- day, make me fear that there is still something in the attitude of the Netherlands Government, wbich 1 have the nonour ta represent, which notquite clear. The MeXican representative' wanted a commission to be sent which would not only ascertain the facts, but .in addition, might perhaps act as·a mediator in the negotia- tions that are now taking place.1 The representa- tive of the Soviet Ulùon said, on Sunday, that 1·approvedthe idea.of a commission be~g sent, provided Mr. Bevin and he could agree.2 This makes it necessary for me' to make my position once IDGè.'e quite clear. The line 1 have taken in tilts debate has been unswerving and bas. not vroied. If consists of the following points: First, 1 .djd Ilot object to the question as worded· being discu&ied. Why? :Because we con- sidered that, as worded, it was not a purely do- mestic question. Secondly, 1 said, both on Thursdayand on Saturday, that a case hadnot been made out for action by the Council;the verbatim report con- tains those statements on both occasions.s This means, of. course, because it cannot mean âny- thing eIse, that Iam against' a commission of enquiry bcing orderedandsênt by"UJ,e Council. S See page 242. , Seepage20S. nésie, à lement Fourthly, 1 cannot admit: however, that a commission, if it is sent, should deal with or mediate in what is, taking the circumstances as they are, a domestic question: namely, the talks which are now taking place between the Netherlands authorities and the nationalist leaders. Fifthly, (and this is the last point), although this matter of the negotiations which are now taking place is a domestic issue, :r. want to say that there is no doubt, as the representative of France has said, that the dispatch of a commis- sion to Java, even if it were confined to enquir- ing into the behaviour of British troops-an enquiry for which my Government thinks there are no good grounds-might well have a confus- ing effect on the negotiations, which we would infinitely regret. Ml'. MANUILSKY (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (translated from French): 1 shall speak only on a single point: the proposaI of the representative of France that the Council be satisfied with a simple declaration by the Presi- dent. My delegation has illstructed me to urge you to take a decision one way or the other, whether positive or negative, and not to accept the proposai submitted by the French Minister for Foreign Affairs. Why is a decision by the Council necessary? Two points of view have been stated here, one of them by the delegation for the Ukraine. Per- mit me to dwell for a moment on my delega- tion's viewpoint. We noted that British troopa have been used against the Illdonesian popula- tion; we also noted that Japanese troops have been used against the population, in territories Qccupiedby the Japanese aggressors. Finally, a de facto state of-war exists in that àrea. That is our contention. If it is true, as New York radio reports have stated, that from thirty to forty thousand persons have died in military operations, we would point out that this figure represents haU of the Russian army which tonk part in the Battle of Borodino, fought against Napoleon in 1812. If you thiIlk that these facts are normal and do not come within the jurisdic- tian of the Security Council, your view shall prevail. ,The other point of view was stated by Ml'. ,Bevin and Ml'. van K1~frens. They l'laid that these facts could be explaiIled: there were not enough British. troops and therefore Japanese' On' the other hand, 1 am obliged to Mr. van Kleffens for having, in bis last statement, re- tracted somewhat the statements made earlier, in which it had been claimed that the Indo- nesian problem and the events taking place in that country are a matter exclusively within the jurisdiction of the Netherlands. Mr. Bidault also seemed to consider ws question as an internal Indonesian matter. On this point, the Council must also reach a clear decision. For example, if the use of Japànese troops is a matter entirely within the jurisdiction of Indonesia, the Security Council ought to say so expressIy. In that case, we shall retum to our country and say that there is a new international law under which the use of Japapese troops in Indonesia is an internal affair of the Nethe.rlands. ls it also going ta be said that the military operations against the Indonesian people are a purely internal matter? This is the question on which a decision must be taken. For th~t.reason, we insist that the Security Council ought to reach a decision. 1 think that the Council cannot, in this case, adüpt the method which the Bible ascribes to Pontius Pilate, who washed bis hands when ân evil deed was about to be committed. The Council cannot follow such a policy. It must reach a decision. This is the first point 1 wished to make. My second point is the following: Mr. Bidault stated that the Netherlands Government should be·left free to solve this problem by negotiation. Allow me to outline the duties which 'would faU to the Security Council if it sent an impar- tial commission to Indonesia for the purpose of examining the situation. The representative of Mexico observed that, in order to reach adeci- sion, one must be in full possession Qf the facts of the problem; 1 agree with that point of view, particularly when the information which reaches us is conflicting. 1 have not asked you ta take a decision on the substance of the matter, but merely to set up a commissi:pn of enquiry. On what groundsis my proposal peing resisted? Why is the Netherlands delegationopposed to it? You are aware·that the representatives of the Indonesian people (and 1. regret that 1 do not see them here to plead their case) have· sent telegrams to Mr. Truman, President. of the , United .States.of America, to.Mr. Attlee, Prime Minister of the United. Kingdom, and to Gm- Now, with reference to the com1lllSSlon of enquiry, what would be its task? It has been claimed that the dispatch of sueh a commission would hinder negotiations between the Nether- lands Government and the Indonesian people. 1 do not hold this view. The commission would study the situation on the spot. Perhaps it would tell us that the Ukrainian delegation.was not correct in every respect, but that its opinion was well-founded in certain respects. It would exam- ine certain facts and ascertain whether or not the Japanese troops have been disarmed or whether the military authorities are proposing to disarm them. The commission would also see whether the press was lying when it stated that the methods used involved burning all the vil- lages. In short, it would give us its opinion on the ·truth of the allegations made here. 1 would remind you, for example, of the case of the .murder in Indonesia of Brigadier-General Mal- laby, which 1 regret sincerely. To judge from information in the press, and such as 1 have been able to obtain personally, it appears fuat Brigadier-General Mallaby was murdered be- cause Japanese troops had not. been disarmed, and that he was the victim of Japanese agents or soldiers. This case requires study, and an en- quiry should be made. For these reasons, 1 consider that the work of such a commission would be very helpful in- deed. 1 would therefore ask you to advocate a ' clear and definite solution which, l think, would be infinitely preferable to the policy adopted by Pontius Pilate, whose name has left unhappy memories in the history of humanity.

The representative of the Ukrainian SSR has insisted upon a vote being taken upon bis proposition. 1 would indicate to the Council that it will require, under Article 27, seven affirmative votes to·be registered in its favour. 1 shall now put to the vote the resolution, which 1 shall read first of all to members' of the Council: présentant que le·Conseil de dont qu'aux ne en sa faveur. le vais Mter, having heard the statement made by the deleg-ation of the Ukrainian SSR on the situation in Indonesia, which t..hreatens inter- M'ter having heard the statements made by the Foreign Ministern of the United Kingdom and of the Netherlands, Mr. Bevin and Mr. van Kleffens; M'ter having exchanged views on the question raised; The Security Couneil decides ta set up commission consisting of representatives of the United States of America, the Soviet Union, China, the United Kingdmn and the Netherlands, which should carry out an enquiry the spot, establish the faets in Indonesia and report to the Security Couneil on the result its work•. The representative of Egypt has spoken at earlier stage in this debate. That would have been the opportunity for the representative have made such proposition as he might have thought proper. Every representative has spoken, andreply has been made by the representative of the ekraine. If~ at this stage, the representative of Egypt wishes to make some proposition to the Couneil, 1 would suggest that the oo1y way in which that might be admissible would be for the Couneil itself to be prepared to give that permissio~ to the. representative of Egypt. Therefore, if the representative of Egypt wishes me to submit to the Couneil that he should have permission to make that proposition, 1 shall glad to do so. Mr. RIAz (Egypt) (translated trom French): The proposai 1 should Iike to Il}ake could presented in the form of an amendment to the proposai before us, and 1 therefore think that am entitled to move that amendment now. Mr. VYSHINSKY (Union of Socialist Soviet Republics) (translated trom Russian): .1 consider that the request of a member of the Couneil cannot he refused when that member wli/hes to make a statement in regard to a proposaI which is before the Council. If the representative of Egypt wishes to make observations or astatement in regard to the proposai which has just been read or to put·fOl "ard anothex proposaI in the matter, it seems to me that nobody has the right to prevent him from doing so. 1 therefore support the request of the representative cf Egypt.

As the question of the Council's procedure is· a matter for the COUDcil resolve, 1 shall submit to the Couneil the question whether the representative of Egypt should have the opportunity of presenting bis proposi~ tion in regard .to this matter. Are there any objections to the representative of Egypt intimating bis proposition? Since there are.no objections, Icall upon the representative of Egypt. 1. The surrender of Japanese troops; 2. The liberation of Allied prisoners of war and Allied nationals who are still interned; Regarding the situation created by the Indonesian national movement: 'While hoping that the negotiations wmch have started between the Netherlands Government and the chiefs of the Indonesian movement will rapid1y be concluded by a happy solution inspired by the aims and principles of the Charter, and principally by the right of self-determination of peoples, The Council expresses its will ta be informed in a very short time of the results of these negotiations, The Council aIso reserves its right to take, such further action as it thinks proper. Mr. STETTINlUS (United States of America): On a point of order: the r~presentativeof Egypt introduced bis remarks by saying he had an amendment to make. As 1 understand it,'it is not an amendment; it is an entirely new resolution that-he is presenting to the Council for us to vote upon. (traduit représentant se proposait crois amendement. plètement pour Mr. RrAz (Egypt) (translated Irom French) : 1 said,that my proposal.,was an amenc1ment of substance. if a proposal consists in taking up a principle stated in an amendment, and proposmg that action be deferred to.a future date subject to the fulfilment of certain· conditions subsequendy, then1 comider that this is, an the same, an a.mendment. amendement à ment sous térieurement, quand

The Council can see what difficulties can arise when an amendment or suggestion is introduced after the principal bate has been closed and when we are about proceed to a vote upon the question. The introduction at this stage of an amendment which was permitted by the Council really means that it could rightly be claimed by, members of Council that they should have an opportunity. fully to express their views upon the particular proposition that has been put forward by representative of Egypt. But 1 certainly think that, before we can offer any' observations, it reasonable and right that we should have full text of that resolution properly typed so that we ~an study closely the real purpose of amendment'that has been suggested bythe representative ,of Egypt. In these circumstances, 1would ask the members of the Couneil whether • they would wish, at this stage, to adjourn before a ,decision is reached, or whether they have any other view to express as to how to proceed this matter. Mr. R1:Az (Egypt) (translated from French) 1 sineerely regret putting the Council to so much trouble. However, 1 would,remind its members that, on previousoceasions, motions were put' forward one after the other, right up to end of meetings, without any objection being raised on procedural grounds, although the texts reached us after the original texts had been tabled. We had a, motion before us; yet closed the meeting beeause several other motions were handed to the Chair ,later. These precedents occurredin the two debates which preceded this one, and 1 submit that we should not depart fromthatprocedure now.

'1 would like to."say to, the representative of Egypt that no objection has cC''''=~''''7''''C''' ~.•JEt.~~e~!:~~fr ' Mr•.RIA2') (Egypt) (translatedfromFrench): Iam glad. to noteit.· Mf: .BIÏ>AULT ,,'(France) (translated' from Frenclt):lconsider that itis opento all members of the CO\Ulcil to submit proposa1s,amendmentsornlotionsat any time during the deb.ates. As fat as formis concemed, we cannot e~press anY opinïoll.on atextafterJPerely having readtous.'I'his text, maycontain matters, ÏIpportance.lth'ereforeagree .withthe Presi deflt'spropqsal Ul~tweshould nÇ>tgofurther .int~m~tterforth~-timebeing..,,' . ·'Ç'Nfi. 'Yl"SEm-rS~ (Union! of SovietSoda1ist

The suggestion has been made that the Council should now adjourn it'l proceedings so that the text of thé amendment proposed by thexepresentative of Egypt can be circulated and Studied. 1 trust that it ",ill be realized that as yet, as President, 1 have not indicated the ,gdmiSsibility of the amendment or whether it can be regarded as an amendment. 1 shall require to study that point dosely and shall make my announcement upon it at the next meeting. 1 will certainly ask for the Council's advice upon that situation. In regard to the adjournment, is it the wish of the Council that at this stage it should adjourn its proceedings? As there are no objections, that is agreed. The time that is suggested for the meeting of the Council tomorrow is between the hours of 2.30 and 5.30 p.m. Mr. VYSHINSKY (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated from Russian): Such an interval between. meetings is too short. We have a great deal of other work to do in the Commissions and in the General Assembly, and we shall not be able to study this matter carefully if our attention is divided. 1 thinka matter of three or four hours is involved, and that does not mean that the meeting will be put off for long. 1 would suggest that we meet in the evening. The PR:ESIDENT: It has been suggested to me that nine 0'clock tomorrow night would be a convenient mne. Thé·hours that 1 have mentioned do not seem to be mutually convenient. If nine o'dock tomor!ow night is suitable to all members,then '1. shall take.that asagreed.. The COul.lcil stands adjourned. M. socialistes intervalle entre . avons et à pas si notre s'agit derait propose Le suggéré que l'ouverture demain, I~es agréer àce heures, d'accord. .heures, demain soir. Th~ meeting rose at 1.10 p.m. EIGHTEENTH' MEETING Tenue le Président:M. Présents: vants: Mexique, bliques Etats-Unis -01tWednesday~13 February 1946, at 9p.m. President:Mr. N. J. O. MAKIN (Australia). Present: The representativesof the following' countries: Australia, Brazil, .China,Egypt, . France,Mexico, Netherlancls, Poland, Union of ~oviet. Socialist .Republics, United Kingdom, Umted· States of AmeriCa.