S/PV.448 Security Council

We shall proceed to a discussion of, item number 2 of the agenda. The members of the Security Council will recall that we began to address ourselves to this matter at our last [447th] meeting, but did not get very far with the discussion. As indicated, the question arises from a letter [5/1338] from the rept'esentatives of Australia, Belgium, Colombia and France, in which it is suggested that the Security Council might be' willing to adopt a resolution, the text of which was set forth. There was some discussion, and some doubt was expressed as to whether the proposal made therein should properly apply to one of the Commissions enumerated· in that draft resolution. The representative of France, being the only signatory of the letter who was also a member of the Security Council, was good enough to 2. Mode d'interpret:.ttion Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Avant que nous ne passions a l'adoption de l'ordre du jour je dois consulter les membres du Conseil d~ securite au sujet de l'interpretation. Les membres du Conseil se souviendront qu'a notre derniere seance et, je le crois, a l'avant-derniere se:mce egalement, nous avons modifie dans une certaine mesure la forme usuelle de l'interpretation simultanee. Lep discours pronoIlces dans unc langue autre que le fran~ais ou l'anglais ant fait l'objet d'une interpretation simultanee en fran~ais, puis d'une interpretation consecutive 'en anglais. D'autre part, les disc')urs prononces en f:ran~ais ou en anglais ant ete interpretes simultanement en rl.1sse et en espagnol et consecutivement dans l'autre langue de travail. J'ai ete informe que, si les membres du Conseil · le desiraient, nous pourrions proceder.de la meme maniere aujourd'hui. On n'a malheureusement pas pu me donner l'assurance que cette methode pourrait etre appliquee regulierement pendant la quatrieme session de l'Assemblee generale, pour des raison& d'ordre purement technique;. neanmoins, si le Conseil desire adopter cette methode aujourd'hui, je prendrai les dispositions necessaires. En i'absence d'objection, nous suivrons cette · methode aujourd'hui. 3. Adoption de l'ordre du j'llur 4. Frais de voyage et indemnites de subsistance aux suppleants des representants aux commissions du ConseU de securite Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Nons abordons le point 2 de 1'0rdre d'l jour. Les membres du Conseil de securite se souviendront que 110US en aVOllS deja commence l'examen lors de. notre derniere [447eme] seance, mais que nous ne l'avons pas pousse tres avant. Ainsi que no11S l'avons indique, la question a ete posee par une lettre [S/1138] adressee par les representants de l'Australie, de la Belgique, de la Colombie et de la France qui suggeraient que le Conseil de seeU- ·rite adopte une resolution dont its avaient redige le texte. Une breve discussion est intervenue et quelques dohtes ant ete exprimes quant ala possi- bilite d'appliquer les dispositions contenues dans le projet de resolution a l'une des commissions qui y sont en~merees. Le .representant de la France, le senl des cosignataires de la' lettre. qui s01t membre d? Conseil de securite, a bien voulu indiquer qu'11 rep'renait a son compte le projet de resolution. n Mr. DE LA TOURNEILE (France) (translated from' French): The question which was sub- mitted to the Council by the Australian, Belgian, Colombian and French delegations was thoroughly discussed on 27 July last [432nd meeting}. The representative of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, who presided at that meeting, ended by asking the Council not to take a decision until the following meeting. As some considerable time has elapseci since the meeting of 27 July, it may perhaps be well to recall briefly the facts of the case. Resolution 231 I (IIIt-was-adopted on 8 Octo- ber 1948 during the first part of the third' session of the General Assembly. Paragraph 2 of that resolution states that travelling and subsistence expenses of one alternate for each member of cOlTh"llissioils of inquiry or conciliation shall be payable by the United Nations when the organ concerned-in this case it is the Security Council -decides that an alternate for each member is necessary. Paragraph 3, which I quote, states that the General Assembly "authorizes the Secretary- General to reimburse· retroactively, on the basis of paragraph 2 above, travelling and subsistence expenses incurred by Members participating in M. DE LA TOUJiNELLE (France): La question qui a ete soumise au Conseil par les delegations de l'Australie, de la Belgique, de la Colombie et de la France a deja fait l'objet d'une discussion approfondie le. 27 juillet derIiier 1432eme seance}. Le representant de la RepubEque. socialiste sovie- tique d'Ukraine, qui presidoait alors, avait condu en demandant au Conseil de ne prendre une decision que. lors de sa prochaine reunion. Malheureusement, la seance du 27 juillet est deja. assez lointaine; peut-etre ne sera-t-il pas inutile de rappeler brievement les faits. Au cours de la premiere partie de la troisiem.e session de l'Assemblee generale, a ete adoptee, le 8 octobre 1948, la resolution 231 I (Ill). Cette resolution dispose, dan!:' son paragraphe 2, que les frais de voyage et les indemnites de subsistance des suppleants, a. raison d'un suppleant pour chaque membre des commissions d'enquete et de conciliation, seront supportes par I'Organisation, lorsque l'organe interesse - en l'espece le Conseil de securite - stipulera la necessite d'un suppleant puur chaque membre. Le paragraphe 3, que je cite, stipule que l'Assemblee generale "autorise.le Secretaire general a remboUrser, atitre retroacti£ et conformement au paragraphe 2 ci-dessufl, les frais de voyage et a. payer les indemnites de subsistance engages par les Etats Membres parti- cipant aux commissions d'enquete ou de concilia- tion deja existantes instituees par 1'Assemblee generale ou le Conseil de securite". La decision que nous demandons aujourd'hui au Conseil de prendre est precisement celle qui est, prevue au paragraphe 2 que je viens de rappeler, c'est-a.-dire de decider qu'un suppleant est necessaire pour· chaque membre des commis- sions pour l'Indonesie et pour 1'Inde-Pakistan. Le debat du 27 juillet dernier me parait avail' demontre cette necessite. ~xis.ting commissions of inquiry or conciliation mstltuted by the General Assembly or the Security Council." The. decision which we are today asking the CounCIl to take is in fact that provided fO,r in paragr.aph 2 which I have just quoted, namely, to deCIde that an alternate is necessary for each member of the two Commissions for Indonesia and for India-Pakistan. The debate on 27 July last seems tome to have proved that need. I shall emphasize only two points. Je sou,lignerai seulement deux points. The discussions which took place in the Council on 27 July brought out the fact that the De la discussion qui a eu lieu au Conseil le 27 juillet, i1 est ressorti que la premiere commission envoyee en Grece n'avait pasete comprise dans le benefice de la resolution 231 I (1II) de l'Assemblee generale.•C'est la raison pour la:quelle nous suggerons, par l'amendement qui a ete distri- bue, de supprimer la mention qui avait ete faite de cette commission dans notre projet de reso- lution initial. La decision que prendra le Conseii, s'il accepte notre projet de resolution, comporte sans doute des incidences financieres; mais il ne s'agit nulle.:. ment d'une resolution a. portee. budgetaire. Si notre projet de resolution' est adopte, il appar- ~rst Commission sent to Greece was not included m the provisions of General Assembly resolution ?3l I (lIT). It is for that reason that we propose, m the amendment which has been distributed, that th~ reference made to that Commission in our angInal draft resolution should be deleted. ..lee decision which the Counci! will take, if it accepts oUr draft resolution .will no doubt have ~nandal implications, but it' cannot be said that It .will have budgetary consequences. If'our _•. ;;raft resolution is adopted it will be only a matter - .. Mr. MANUILSKY (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) (translated from Russian): The delegatiop.. of the Ukrainian SSR has already had an opportunity to give its views on the request for the payment of the' "alternates", a request which is absolutely unfounded and contrary to the resolution of the General Assembly to which the French representative has referred. First of all I shall briefly recal1 that resolution. Paragraph 2 of resolution 231 I (Ill) entitled "Payment of travelling and subsistence expenses to representatives to the General Assembly and members of commissions and ether bodies", states that the Assembly "decides that travelling and subsistence expenses shall be payable out of United Nations funds to one represf',!ltative of any Member participating in a commission of inquiry or conciliation instituted by the General Assembly or by the Security Council . . ." That is the rule laying down the method of procedure in the present case. . Paragraph 2 of the resolution continues "... subject to the proviso that an exception to this rule may be permitted on the decision of the organ concerned that ,an-a1te-rnate--ro~€~·· member is necessary." The rulei~ quite clear. \Ve are now to be asked to pay the expenses of an alternate. Why was this question not raised before? Has the United Nations Commission for Indonesia begun its work only today? Was the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan set up yester- day? Alternates were arbitrarily appointed to these Commissions and now we are asked that the United Nations should pay the expenses. I would ask whether this is a correct and economical way of dealing with United Nati()Us f~nds, which have to be covered by Members' contributions? This action is just as arbitrary as if a Member of the Organization were to announce that it was reducing its contribution and, having done so, were to appeal to the Security Council to authorize that reduction retroactively. Even an important State 'like France cannot be permitted to act in such an arbitrary way. That is the first reason for which I am opposed to the payment of those expenSes., I should like to mention the budget, to which I did not refer at our last meeting. The budget of the United Nations will be increased by 50 per cent in 1950. If we compare it with the budget of the League of Nations, the figure is colossal. Indeed, we are demanding excessive expenditure 'from Member States, yet now, in spite of our enormous budget, we are being asked to pay supplementary expenses. M. MANUILSKY (Republique sodaliste sovie- tique d'Ukraine) .(traduit du russe): La delega- tion de la RSS d'Ukraine a deja ell 1'0ccasion d'exposer son attitude a 1'egard de la retribution des "suppleants". Cette demande lui semble depourvue de tout fondement et contraire a la resolution de l'Assemblee generale a laquelIe se rHere le representant de la France. Tout d'abord, je vais rappeler en quelques mots le contenu de cette resolution. It est dit au para- graphe 2 de la resolution 231 I (HI) intitulee: "Paiement des frais de voyage et d'une indemnite de subsistance aux representants a l'Assemblee generale, ainsi qu'aux membres des commissions et autres organes", que l'Assemblee "decide que les frais de voyage et les indemnites de subsistance dpivent etre a la charge de 1'0rganisation des Nations Unies lorsqu'il s'agit d'un representant de tout Etat Membre participant a une commis- sion d'enquete ou de conciliation instituee par l'Assemblee generale ou par le Conseil de securite .. ." Telle est donc la regIe a laquelle 'nolls devons nous ccnformer dans le cas present. Le paragraphe 2 continue ainsi: "... sous reserve qu'une exception a cette regIe pourra etre admise sur cette decision de l'organe interesse stipulant la necessite d'un 3uppleant pour chaque membre". La regIe est claire. Or, on nOllS dem3.nde main- tenant de retribuer des suppleants. Pourquoi n'a-t-on pas souleve cette question plus tot? Est-ce d'aujourd'hui que date la Commission des .Nations Unies pour l'Indonesie? Est-ce hier qu'on ~. constitue la Commission des Nations Unies pour, l'Inde et le Pakistan? Apres avoir designe, d'une maniere arbitraire, des membres suppleants a ces commissions, on vient demander a l'Organisation de couvrir les depenses qui en re~ultent. , Est-ce la une maniere correcte, une maniere---. econome de disposer des fonds de 1'0rganisation - des Nations Unies qui proviennent des contribu- tions ,fournies par l~s Etats Membres? En proce- dant de la sorte, les Membres de 1'0rganisation des Nations Unies agissent d'une maniere aussi arbitraire que si, apres avoir,declare qu'ils redui- saient le montant de leur contribution, its deman- daient au Conseil de securite d'autoriser cette reduction a titre retroactif. On ne saurait tolerer des actes aussi arbitraires, meme s'ils sont commis par un Etat aussi important que' la France. TeIle est la 'premiere consideration qui me pousse a m'opposer ~u paiement de ces depenses. Ten viens maintenant' au budget dont je n'ai pas parle a, laderniere seance. Le budget de l'Organisation des Nations Unies va augmenter de 50 pour 100 en 1950. Ce chiffre est enorme, si on le compare au budget de la Societe des Nations. Nous' avons impose aux Etats Membres des depenses qui sont, .en fait, hors de toute proportion, et voici que, en depitde ce qudget enorme, 011 vient nous demander de couvnr des depenses supplementaires. I should like to go further and say that such a war-devastated country as the Ukrainian SSR would not come here with outstretched hands and ask for the payment of travelling and subsistencf' expenses, but would undertake to bear those expenses itself. How can we ask the United Nations to pay the expenses of such States as Australia, Belgium, Colombia, and especially France? France is a large State; furthermore, I have read a communication in the newspapers, emanating, unless I am mistaken, from the Presi- dent of the Council of Ministers, Mr. Queuille, to the effect that France's financial position has reached a reccrd level, approaching that of 1927. Why, then, can it not defray costs amounting- only to this ridiculous sum of 250,000 dollars? Why does it ask that it be paid by other economi- cally under-developed small States and by Stat~s which have been devastated by the war and ar now in need of technical assistance for' the re- habilitation of their economy? VVhere is the principle of equality that is proclaimed by the Unit<,;d Nations? It is not enough to impose the consequences of the economic crisis on the small States, but they must also bear the expenses in- curred in connexion with all kinds of commissions. I consider these claims to be absolutely un- founded,. the more so as we shall have to give serious consideration in the Fifth Committee to the advisability of putting an end to such expendi- tures, such frittering away of the funds of Member States. Would the owner of any private undertaking incur such supplementary expenses? If he d1d, he would soon declare bankruptcy. As regards United Nations funds, they come from outside sources, and attempts are therefore made to profit by them. Cette pretention me semble depourvue de tout fondement et la Cinquieme Commission devra d'ailleurs trouver une methode pour mettre fin a ces depenses, voire a ce gaspillage des fonds fournis par les Etats Membres. Le proprietaire d'une entreprise privee consen- tirait-il a assUmer des depenses supplementaires de ce genre? S'il le faisait, il ne tarderait pas a faire faillite. Quarit aux fonds de 1'0rganisation, ils viennent du dehors; c'est pourquoi oq che.rche a en profiter. ~-Fitlally, I want to say frankly, and I consider It my dutyto-do-,-so, that a number of organs have been established arotmdthe United Nations which offer nothing but sinecures: compensations, travelling expenses, subsistence expenses. It may be seen from the budget of the United Nations that we have a whole series of divisions the members of which are continually travelling on -pe.rsonal business, while their expenses are sub- mItted to the United Nations for payment. .H.a S~ate has agreed to carry out an honorary mISSIon, It should pay for that honour itself and should not make others bear the costs. I, there- Enfin, je tiens a declarer - j'estime que c'est la mon devoir - qu'on a cree, aupres clel'Orga- nis~tion des Nations Dnies, toute une'serie d'organes qui n'offrent que des sinecures. Indem- nites, frais de voyage, allocatiolls journalieres! It suffit de se reporter au budget de l'Organisation desN:ations Dnies pour voir qu'il existe toute une serie de -divisions· dont les membres. voyag:ent . constamrnent pC)ul"r€gler leurs affaires person- nelles et dont 1'0rganisation-4~it_~ouvrir les frais. Si un Etat a consenti a remplirune.mission pour ainsi direhonorifique, c'est 'lui:'meme-qui doit. supporter .1es frais de l'honneur. qui luia -'-~-. ete fait; il ne doit pas faire supporterces frais par d'autres. Je propose donc de rejeter cette proposition, depour.vue de tout .£ondement et contraire a la resolution 23.1 I (III) , car dIe ne fait qu'augmenter les depenses de 1'0rganisatio!1, des Nations Unies, depenses qui sont deja trop lourdes pour un grand nombre de petits Etats. ~ore, propose the rejection ofthisproposal, which IS. completely unfounded and not in conformity ;'VIth resolution 231 I (HI) for it only further ,lUc:;eases the expenses of the United Nations, whlch are already too burdensome for many small States. Mr. DE LA TOURNELLE (France) (translated .m French) : The representative of the Ukrain- > Mr; TSARAPKIN (Union of Soviet Socialist" M. TSARA];'KINE (Union des Republiques socia- Republics) (translated from Rztssian): The listes sovietiques) (traduit du russe) : Le repre- representative of France has just said that J:rance sentant de la France vient de declarer que son is not a member of the Commission for' India pays ne faisait partie ni de la Commission pour and Pakistan, nor of the Commission for lndo- l'Inde et le Pakistan, ni de la Commission pour nesia, and that, consequently, it is not a directly l'Indonesie, et que, par consequent, il n't~tait pas interested party. As far as I know, however, directement interesse a, la question. Mais, pour France was_a member of the Commission of autant que je le sache, la France a fait partie de Investigation concerning Greek Frontier Inci- la,Commission d'enquete sur les incidents surve- dents, which no longer exists, and the French nus le long de la frontiere grecque, qui a Cesse representative, in the fi~st version of his letter, d'exister depuis; or, le represent~ ,t de la France requested the United Nations tOIJay the expenses a demand6, dans sa premiere lettre a I'Organi- of alternates to that now non-.existent Commis- sation des Nations Unies; que 1'0n retribuat les sion. Therefore it was only after the shelving membres suppleants de cette commission qui of the question of paying alternate represen!:atives n'existe plus. C'est done seulement apres que .la on the Commission of Investigation concerning question de la retribution des membres suppleants Greek Frontier Incidents that France apparently de la Commission d'enquete sur les incidents bec~me a disinterested party. But that is not the survemis le long de la frontiere grecque eut ete substance of the matter. retiree que la France a cesse d'y etre directement interessee. Mais ce n'est pas la le fond du probleme. Irrespective of whether or not France is a member of the Commissions for which payment is requested, one point is quite clear: the request is unfounded. It is legally absolutely groundless and is contrary to General Assembly resolution 231 I (Ill) of 8 October 1948, which has been mentioned here. Paragraph 2 of that resolution states quite definitely that the expenses of only one representative of any Member participating in a commission shall be payable; an· exception to this rule could be lna,de only by special decision of the appropriate organ, that is to say, .the General Assembly or the Security Council, de- termining that each representative needed an alt.ernate. We have no such decision in the present case. Furthermore, I should like to refer to the authoritative conclusions presented to us by the ,._ Secretariat [S/1335]. The representative of -Fr;t.!1.ce has said that there is no need to consider Que la France fasse ou non partie de ces commissions dont on demande de couvrir les frais, une chose est certaine: cette demande n'est .pas legitime. Elle est depourvue de tout fondement. juridique, et elle est en contradiction flagrante avec'la resolution qu'an a invoquee. id, a savoir la resolution 231 I eIlI) de l'Assemblee generaIe en date du 8 octobrel948. Au paragraphe 2de cette resolution,.il est dit clairement que l'Organi~ sation prend asa charge les frais d'u,n seul repre- ' sentant de chaque Etat membre de la commission interessee; une· exception a cette regIe ne pourra etre admiseque sur decision de l'organe interesse, en l'occurrence, de l'Assemblee general\': ou du ConseiJ de' securite, stipulant la necessite d'un suppleant pour chaque inembre. Or, aucune deci- sion de ce genren'est intervenue dans le cas present. Je tiens a rappeler en outre l'opinion autorisee du Secretariat [S/1355]. Le representant de la France a ditqu'il n'y avait pas lieu de prend~e cette opinion en consideration, car eUe n'a~ :':~solution de l'Assemblee generale ne prevoyait la retribution de suppleants que dans des cas exceptiollnels, et seulement pour les commissions existahtes. Neanmoins, it a presente une demande concernant une commission qui n'existe plus. Est-ce la une demande legitime ou une attitude loyale et honnete a. l'egard de 1'Organisation des Nations Unies? Non. Le Secretariat.declare en outre que les resolu- tions portant creation des commissions de media- tion pour 1'Inde et le Pakistan et pour l'Indonesie ne stipulaient pas la necessite de suppleants. Par consequent, cette demande relative aux membres suppleants de ces comm1ssions est, elle aussi, con- traire a la i"esolution 231 I (IlI) du 8 octobre, ou it est dit -'- je le repete - que les frais ne seront couverts qu'au cas ou la resolution perti- nente de l'Assemblee generale ou du Conseil de securit6 prevoit expressement la necessite d'un suppleant pour tel ou teI representant. Il n'est done pas legitime de demander qu'on retribue les membres suppleants des commissions pour nnde et le Pakistan et pour l'Indonesie. .- that an alternate for each member is necessary. . Hence, the payment of alternate:? to the Com- missions for India and Pakistan and for Indo- nesia is also illegal. This contradicts the very decision of the General Assembly on the basis of which it is desited to obtain money from our Organization. The Secretariat points out that since this resolu- tion did not permit the payment of alternates on the Commissions for India and Pakistan, for Indonesia, and for Greece, the Secretarv-General does not have the funds in his budget for the payment of these alternates. No provision was made for these payments and the Secretary- General never requested these funds because there was no provision wnatever in the resolution for the payment of any expenses of alternates of Cela est contrair~ a cette meme resolution de 1'Assemblee generale que 1'on invoquepour demander de l'arger.t a 1'Organisatior.. des Nations Unies. Le Secretariat precise que le Secretaire general ne dispose pas, dans son budget, de fonds pour payer ces suppleants, parce que la resolution en question ne prevoyait pas la retribution des membres suppleantsdes commissions pour l'Inde et le Pakistan, pour l'Indonesie et pour la Grece. Ces depenses n'bnt pas ete prevues et le Secretaire general n'a jamais demande de credits a cet efIet, etant donne que la resolution ne stipulai~ pointle remboursement des depenses engagees par les membres suppIeants de· cescommissio'rrs. La reso- lution ne le prevoyait pas; cela est incompatible ayec cette resolution. the:,;~ Commissions. Payment was not provided for 111 the resolution and is incompatible with it. . Disregarding this fact, the Security Council IS t;ow.asked to pay these alternates retroactively, WhICh IS illegitimate and in contradiction to the the decisbn of the General Assembly, and it is asked to request the Fifth Committee and subse- quently, the General Assetnbly, to rel~ase supple- mentary funds to the Secretary-General. In the first place, 200,000 dollars have to be provided to Nonobstant ce fait, on demande au Conseil de securite de faire retribuer ces suppleants a titre retroactif, ce qui est parfaitement illegitime et contraire a la resolution de 1'Assemblee generale, et on 1'invite a prier la Cinquieme Commission, puis l'Assemblee generale, de mettre a la dispo- sition. du Secretaire general des fonds supplemen- taires. Il s'agit tout d'abord de demander 200.000 dollars pour retribuer les membres suppIeants des commissions qili ont ete creees jusqu'ace jour, puis de prevoir des credits pour couvrir les aepen- ses qui pourraient etre engagees a 1'avenir. Que faut-it en conclure? Il s'agit bel et bieIt - excusez-moi d'utiliser ce mot, mais je- ne puis m'exprimer autrement etant donne cette resolu- tion de l'Assemblee - d'une tentative demauvaise foi pour extorquer al'Organisation des Nations Unies des sommes destinees cl. payer des personnes qui n'ont aucun droitd'exiger que l'Organisation couvre leurs frais de voyage.. c0;ID~ensate the expenses of alternates on Com- .-mIsslOns:which have been incurred up to the present tIme. Then credit must be provided for expenses which may be incurred in the future. How can tJ:is be viewed? I must apologize for the expressIOn, but in view of this resolution of the General Assembly: I can only describe such an act as an unconscionable attempt to extort money from the United Nations for the reim- burs.ement of individuals who have no right to receIve any funds from the United Nations in payment of their tra.veUing expenses. Mr. DE LA TOURNELLE (France) (translated from French): The representative of the l.Jkrainian SSR carries heavy responsibi1iti~s in his country. He always stays o::lly a very short time with us, too short a tim,;, in my opinion. It is therefore no doubt excusable for him to refer to the· representation of France on com- missions of which that countrJ has never been a member. I had hoped, however, that the repre- sentative of the USSR, who is permanently attached to the Security Council, would know all the General Assembly resolutions. Unhappily, even that is a vain hope. The representative of the Soviet Union has evidently not read the resolution of 8 October 1948 to which he has referred at great length, the text of which reads "... subject to the proviso that an exception to this rule may be permitted on the decision of the organ concerned that an alternate for each mem- ber is necessary." What does that mean? It means that the organ concerned-obviously the commission of inquiry-is free to take a decision, if it deems necessary, nominating an alternate for each member. Consequently, the proposal we submit to the Security Council is perfectly logical and legal. Whether that resolution pleases or displeases th", USSR representative is another matter, which is none of my affair. Mr. MANUILSKY (Ukrainian. Soviet Socialist Republic) (translated from. Russian): The speech of the representative of France was un- convincing and could not be convincing for the simple reason that we have quoted a resolution in 'Nhich it is quite c1earlystated in black and white that the United Nations will assume the payment of expenses for only one representative. That is how the resolution reads. Whether the representative of France likes it or not, whether I like it or not, this resolution exists and must be applied. Furthermore, it is stated in this reso- lution that alternate representatives would not be compensated, but that their expenses would be covered only by way of exception. Yet, for some reason or other, the representative of F1;'ance insists upon interpreting the resolution precisely in the sense that alternates can be paid, and retroactively at that. The representative of France takes the position that, while he was once a representative on the Commission c> ( Inquiry concerning Greek Fron- tier Incidents, now he is altruistically protecting- the interests of other States. I cannot· call generosity at someone else's expense altruism. Charity at another's expense is very easy. If the Government of Fravt:e wishes to be generous and pay these expenses, let it pay them, but why should other Governments have to pay them? Why pay them at someone else's expense? That is why I am objecting to this proposal, and the representative of France has no cause for a1Jger. The arguments he has advanced cannot withstand M. DE LA TOURNELLE (France): Le represen- tant de la RSS d'Ukraine exerce des charges tres lourdes dans son pays. Son sejour parmi nous est toujours tres brei, trop bref a. mon gre personnel. Il est donc sans doute excusable de mentionner la representation de la France dans des commis- sions dont eUe n'a jamais fait partie. En revanche, j'avais l'espoir que le representant de 1'URSS qui, lui, siege de fa<;on permanente au Conseil de secu- rite connut toutes les resolutions de l'Assem- bIee generale. Malheureusement, cet espoir est vain, lui aussi. Le representant de l'Union sovie- tique n'a evidemment pas lu la resolution du 8 octobre 1948, a. laquelle it a fait longuement allu~ sion, qui dec:1are textuellement: "... sous reserve qu'une exception a. cette regIe pourra etre admise sur decision de l'organe interesse stipulant la necessite d'un suppleant pour chaque membre". Que signifie ce texte? I1 signifie que l'organe inte- resse - c'est evidemment la commission d'enquete - est libre de prendre une decision stipulant; s'il l'estime necessaire, la designation d'un suppleant pour chaque membre. Par consequent, la proposition que nous faisons au Conseil de securite est parfaitement logique et legale. Que cette resolution plaise ou non all representant de l'URSS, je n'y suis pour rien. M. MANUILSKY, (Republique socialiste sovie- tique d'Ukraine) (traduit dZ6 russe): La declara- tion du representant de la France n'a convaincu ni ne pouvait convaincre personne, pour la simple raison que nous avons cite une resolution ou i1 est dit c1airement, noir sur blanc, que l'Org-ani- sation aes Nations Unies se charge de retribuer un seul representant. Tel est le texte de la reso- lution. Que le representant de la France ou moi- meme le voulions ou non, cette resolution existe et il faut l'appliquer. D'autre part, cette resolution precise que'les membres suppleants ne seront pas retribues et que leurs frais ne seront couverts qu'a titre d'exception. Or, le representant de la France· tient, on ne sait pour ql.lelle raison, a. interpreter ce texte en ce sens que l'on peut retribuer les suppleants et qu'on pettt memele faire retroacti- vement. Le representant de la France affirme qu'il a fa!t partie de la Commission d'enquete sur les inCI- dents survenus le long de la frontiere grecque mais que, en ce moment, i1 defend, d'une fa~on tout cl fait desinteressee, les inh~rets d'autres pays. A mon sens, la generosite aux frais d'autrui n'a rien de desinteresse. I1 est bien facile de faire de la- biertfaisance avec l'argent des atttres. Si le Gouvernement de la France veut etre genereux et assumer le paiement de ces frais, qu'il le fasse lui-meme. Pourquoi faire appel cl d'autres Eta~s? Pourquoi couvrir ces depenses cl leurs f:~lS? Voila pourquoi je m'oppose a cette propOSitIOn, et le representant de la France aurait tort de. On several occasions I have heard representa- tives of the United States, and particularly Mr. Vandenberg, teaching us the need for economy and exhorting us to spend United Nations funds economically. Now, when we want to follow this advice, the representative of France comes along and violates the principles of economy by his request. That is the reason why I am afraid of this extremely dangerous precedent. I must apologize for having taken up the time of the Council but I will vote against any pro- posals whatsoever to satisfy the claims of the representative of France. Mr. TSARAPKIN (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated from Russian): I wish to reply very briefly to the representative of France since he has attempted-to be sure, unsuc- cessfully-to assert that the representative of the USSR had not clearly understood the resolution. I want to show that I did and do understand the resolution correctly, and that the delegation of France---whetller intentionally or not-is attempt- ing to interpret the resolution incorrectly and is making an unfounded demand on the United Nations. The representative of France has stated that the organ concerned should decide whether an alternate was needed or not, and whether or not he was to be paid. According to him, the "organ concerned" is the commission or committee in which a particular representative having an alter- nate participates. But in paragraph 2 of the Le representant de la France a declare id que c'est l'organe interesse qui doit decider s'il faut ou non designer un suppleant et s'il faut ou· non le retribuer. Selon lui, cet "organe interesse", c'est la commission ou le comite dont font partie le membre ou le suppleant en question. Or, it ressort du paragraphe 2 de la resolution que cet "organe interesse" est l'Assemblee generale ou le Conseil de securite. Le Secretaire general inter- prete la resolution de la meme fa<;on. Je ne crois pas que dans cette question ce soit le Secretaire general de l'Organisation des Nations,Unies qui se trompe et le representant de la France qui ait raison. Je vais donner lecture d'un passage de la note du Secretaire general en date du 26 juillet reproduite au document S/1355. Le Secretaire general ecrit dans ses conclusions: "D'autre part, en instifuant la Commission de.bons offices pour l'Indonesie en octobre 1947 et la Commission de mediation sur la question Inde-Pakistanen avril 1948, le Conseil de securite n'a pas stipule la necessit:e de supplements".' ~esolution it is stated that this "organ concernec1" IS the General Assembly or the Security Council. That is the way the Secretary-General also under- stands it. I do not think that the Secretary- General of the United Nations was mistaken in this question and that the representative of France was correct. I shall read from tlle Secretary- General's note of 26 July set forth in document ~/1355. Among his conclusions he says: Further, ..the Security Council in establishing the CommIttee of Good Offices for Indonesia in . October 1947 and the Mediation Commission on the India-Pakistan question in April 1948, did 110t determine the necessity for alternates." .That is.how the Secretary-General understands Voila comment le Secretaire general voit l~ thIS qu.es~lOn. The Security Council-and not the question. C'est le Conseil de securite et non pas CO~mlsslOn, as the representative of France is la commission, comme le pretend le tepresentant trymg .to demonstrate---had· to determine, in the de la France, qui aurait du stipuler, dans Sa reso- resolution whereby it established the Commission, lution portant creation de cette commission, que whether the members of the Commission needed ses membres auraient besoin de suppleants. alternates. ' Les representants des Etats-Unis et, notam~· ment M. Vandenberg, nous ont donue, a plusieurs reprises, des le<;ons d'economie et nous ant invites a ne depenser les fonds de l'Organisation qu'avec une extreme prudenc... Et void que, maintenant ou. nous voulons suivre ces bons conseils, le repre- sentant de la France formule des revendications incompatibles avec ce regime d'6conomie. Voila pourquoi yai peur d'un precedent, d'un precedent extremement dangereux. Je dois m'excuser aupres du Conseil de securite de lui avail' pris tellement de temps, mais je voterai contre toute proposition tend<:"l1t a donner satisfaction aux demandes formulees par le repre- sentant de la France. M. TSARAPKINE (Union des Republiques socia- listes sovietiques) (trailttit ilu russe): Je voudrais repondre brievement au representant de la France, qui s'est efforce de montrer - 2. vrai dire, en vain - que le representant de l'URSS n'avait pas saisi le SellS de la resolution. Je tiens a prouver que j'ai bien compris ce texte et que j'en interprete correctement le sens, alors que la delegation de la France - intentionnellemerit ou non - interprete cette resolution d'une fa<;on erronee et presente a l'Organisation des Nations Unies une demande depourvue de fondement. ttConsidering that in virtue of resolution 231 (Ill) adopted by the General Assembly on 8 October 1948, it is a matter for its own decision whether, in the case of commissions of inquiry or investigation instituted by it, the representative of a Member participating in such commission needs to be assisted by an alternate; "Considering that, in cases where this need has been found by the Security Council to exist, the Secretary-General is authorized by the same reso- lution to reimburse retroactively to States Mem- bers the travelling and subsistence expenses of the alternate of their representatives on the said commissions; UNotes that since the institution of the under- mentioned Commissions the representatives of Members that are participating or have partici- pated have each had to be assisted by an alternate: "1. The Committee of Good Offices, which has now become the United Nations Commission for Indonesia; "2. The United Nations Commission for India and Pakistatl."

I should like to remind members of ,the Security Council that I had the honour to address to them on 22 September a letter in the following terms: "I have the honour to refer to the cablegram dated August 5, 1949 from the Consular Commission of Batavia, requesting that the United Nations assume future costs of allowances of the military observers in Indonesia (S/1366). In order to handle the request expeditiously and save the time of the representatives on the Security Council, I should like to suggest that "Considerant que, selon la resnlution 231 (Ill) adoptee par l'Assemblee generale le 8 octobre 1948, it lui appartient de determiner, en ce qui concerne les commissions d'enquete ou de conci- liation instituees par lui, s'it est necessaire que le representant d'un Etat Mell1.bre faisant partie d'une telle commission soit assiste par un suppleant; "Considerant que, la OU cette necessite a ete ainsi constatee par le Conseil de securite, le Secretaire~general, seIon la meme resolution, est autorise a rembourser retroactivement aux Etats Membres les frais de voyage et indemnites de subsistance du suppleant de leurs representants aux dites commissions; ttConstate que, depuis l'institution des .commis- sions ci-dessous mentionnees, it a ete neccssaire que les representants des Etats Membres qui en font ou en ont fait partie fussent assistes chacun par un suppleant : "1. La Commission de bons offices, devenue la Commission des Nations Unies pour l'Indo- nesie; "2. La Commission de mediation pour la question lnde-Pakistan". Votent pour: Argentine, Canada, Chine, .France, Norvege, Royaume-Uni de Grande- Bretagne et d'Irlande du Nord, Etats-Unis d'Amerique: VotJnt contre: la Republique socialiste sovie- tique d'Ukraine. S'absiiennent: Cuba, Egypte, Union des Repu- bliques socialistes sovietiques. Par 7 voix contre une, avec 3 abstentions, la resolution est adoptee. 5. Frais occasionn~s El l'avenir par la presence d'ohservateurs miIitaires .en Ind.onesie Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Je desire rappeler a~x membres du Conseil de securite que j'ai eu l'honneur de leur adresser, le 22 septembre, une lettre qui se lit cornme suit: "J'ai l'honneur de me rHerer au cablogr~m?le en date du 5 aout 1949 adresse par la Commlssl0~ consulaire de Batavia,clemandant que l'O~ganl­ sation des Nations Unies assume a l'avemr les frais de subsistance des observateurs militaires en Indonesie (S/1366). Afin de permettre.un examen rapide, de cette demande et d'econOlll1Ser le temps du Conseil de securite, .je propose que ce 1 Le '::exte de la resolution, aitlJsi amende, a ete distribue par la suite sous la cote 8/1401. But apart from those considerations, I should like first of all to draw attention to a very irregular phenomenon. ¥Jhat is the real nature of the Commission in Indonesia, the so-called Consular Commission which consists of those States having consular repre~entatives there? It would seem that, if the Security Council has en- trusted those consuls with observing the situation in Indonesia, this should be enough. However. we are now being asked to pay the costs of some kind of military observers, a matter which I shall take up later. In other words, it is proposed that we should increase the consular staff, of States which have consular representatives in Indonesia, again at the United Nations' expense. Is this a normal state 0 f affairs? No, it is quite an abnormal one. The truth is that a question of the greatest importance has been entrusted to an artificially and accidentally created organ. First, few States which have consuls in Indonesia are entrusterl ,with observing a most important situation there; then the Security Council is asked to increase their staffs by the appointment. of military observers and to pay these observers. These are the results of squandering United Nations funds which result from what I should call a biased approach to the problem. phe~omene tout a fait anorma!. Que represente au Juste cette commission qui opere en Indonesie, cette Commission dite consulaire qui c~mprend les Etats dont les consuls se trouvent sur les lieux? Le Conseil de. secutite a charge ces consuls de surveiller la situation dans ce pays et it semblerait que cela doive suffire. Or, void que maintenant on propose de retribuer des observateurs mili- taires, dont je parlerai, du reste, plus tard. En d'autres termes, on propose au Consell d'augmen- ter, aux ftais de l'Organisation des Nations Unies, bien entendu, le personnel des consulats entretenus par ces Etatsen Indonesie. Est-ce la une situation normale? Non, elle est absolument anormale. . Une question de la plus haute importance a ete confiee en realite a un organe etabli d'Une maniere pour ainsi dire artificielIe et fertuite. On com- mence par confier a quelques Etats qui ont des consuls en Indonesie le sain d'observer sur place une situation extremement grave; puis on propose au Consell d'augmenter le personnel de ces con- sulats en designant des observateurs miIitaires qu'it aura lui-meme a retribuer. Voila a quoi aboutit le gaspillage des fonds de l'Organisation des Nations Unies, associe a une maniere d'abot- der le probleme que je qualifierai de partiale, Toutefois, j'ai encore d'autres raisons, des raisons d'ordre politique, de m'opposer a cette proposition. Je me demande ce que feront ces obsel'vateurs en Indonesie dans les conditions actuelles. Lorsque nous soulevons la question indonesienne, on nous repond: "Il ne faut pas gener les travaux de la Conference de la table ronde qui se tientacfuellement aLa Haye". Mais, en meme temps, on noUs propose de designer des observateurs militaires. Or, le President sait lui- meme ce que ces observateurs et cette Commission consulaire ont fait en Indonesie. L'Indonesie et les Pays-Bas n'oat-its pas abouti aun accord,2 .But I have other reasons as well for opposing thiS proposal, reasons of a political character. What, let me ask, will those observers do in the prevailing circumstances in Indonesia? 'When- ever the question of Indonesia is raised, we are told: "Do not interfere with the work of the Round Table Conference now taking place at The' Hague." At the same time, however, we are asked to create a group of military observers. But the President himself knows what those observers and that Consular Commission have really accomplished in Indonesia. Was not an :greement,2 the Linggadjati Agreement, con- N=§.ee The Political E!,ents in the Republic of Indonesia, e~lerlands In£onnation Bureau, New York, page 34. Let me recall another incident which occurred when we met in Paris just before Christmas. The Dutch are known to be a religious people; nevertheless, despite the fact that it was Christmas time, they took advantage of the absence of some of the members of the Security Council to launch . military operations. I shall leave aside the ques- tion of how this action could be reconciled with the religious feelings of the believing members . of the Security Council, but this action was a fact. The Security Council met and ordered the cessation of military activities [S/1150] but its orders were not carried out although the Consular Commission was meeting in Batavia. And now we are being asked to defray the costs of that Consular Commission. My conscience as a statesman does not permit me to vote in favour of this resolution. The truth of-the matter is that, with the con- nivance of the United Kingdom and the United States, a noose has been slung around the neck of'the Indonesian people, who are being virtually strangled, and the Round Table Conference is merely noting a fait accompli. And now we are being asked to pay the costs into the bargain. If costs are to be paid, let them be paid by those States which are responsible for such a policy, and which have their observers in Indonesia. I do not think that the Security Council should have to cover expenses of such a nature. Mr. ARcE (Argentina) (translated from Spanish): In item 3 of the agenda there is a reference to the future cost of military observers in Indonesia. As the news 'seems to indicate that, things are already settled there, I feel that hence- forth there will be no call for any military observers and that, consequently, there will be no expenditure on that score. I1 existe un autre accord, celui qui a ete concltt a bord du navire americain Renville [S/649 appendices VIII, XI et XIII] et qui n'est e~ realite qu'un joug impose au peuple d'Indonesie. Mais cet accord a-t-il ete respecte? Non, il ne l'a pas ete. I1 a ete viole d'une facson flagrante par les representants·du Gouvernement des Pays-Bas. Le Conseil de securite, qui a examine cette question, s'est montre parfaitement impuissant et n'a rien entrepris pour faire respecter ses propres decisions. Enfin, le Conseil de securitc a adopte toute une serie de resolutions relatives a la cessation des hostilites. C'est ainsi qu'i! a charge la Commission consulaire de veiller a ce que les operations mili- taires prennent fin [S/ 525, I]. Or, les Hollandais se sont-ils conformes a cette decision du Conseil? Non; ils'ont poursuivi les operations militaires' ils ant incendie des villages; ils ant massacre le~ populations indonesiennes de Java et de Sumatra; ils ont poursuivi les hostilites et ils n'ont pas donne suite aux resolutions du Conseil de securite bien que la Commission consulaire £Ut present~ a:Batavia. Je vais vous rappeler un autre incident qui s'est produit a la veille de Noel, lorsque le Conseil s'est reuni a Paris. On sait que les Hollandais sont un peuple religieux mais, en depit des fetes de Noel, ils ont profite de l'absence de certains membres du Conseil de securite pour lancer des operations militaires. Je ne sais pas comment cela s'accorde avec le sentiment religieux des membres croyants du Conseil de securite, mais c'est hien ce qui s'est produit. Le ConseH de securite s'est reuni, il a ordonne la cessation des operations militaires [S/1150], mais rieD. n'a ete fait, en depit du fait que la Commission consulaire siegeait a Batavia. Et maintenant, on nous pro- pose de payer les frais de cette Commission consu- laire. Ma conscience d'homme politique m'interdit .de voter en faveur de cette resolution. Le Royq.ume-Uni et les Etats-Unis ont permis, en realite, d'imposer un joug au peuple indone- sien; ce peuple est ecrase, et la Conference de la table ronde nesert qu'a constater ce fait accompli. Et maintenant, on propose a l'Organisation des Nations Unies de prendre a sa charge les frais qui en sont resultes.. Si tant est qu'il faille couvrir ces depenses, il convient d'en charger les Etats qui sont responsables de cette poiitique, qui ont la-bas des observateurs~ Je ne crois pas que le Conseil doive prendre ces depenses a sa charge. M. ARCE (Argentine) (traduit de l'espagnol) : I1 est question, au point 3 de l'ordre du jour, de demander a l'Organisation des Nations Unies d'assumer, a l'avenir, les frais occasiones par la presence d'observateurs militaires en' Indonesie. Pplsqu'il semble, d'apres les nouvelles, que la situation est deja reglee, je pense que nous n'en- verrons pas d'observateurs militaires a l'avenir, et que l'Organisation des Nations Uriies n'aura, par consequent, rien a payer. ~ The proof is that we have on the agenda an item according to which we are going to set up -or we are apparently going to set up-a United Nations Guard. I should also like to point out that the Consular . Commission's request refers to "future ~osts" and that therefore we have absolutely nothmg to pay up to the present. cree~ - OU, tout au moins, il semble que nous allons creer - une garde des Nations Unies. Je me permets dcme de faire observer que la Commission consulaire demande que les Nations Umes assument les frais e.'l question "a "l'avenir"; par consequent, l'Organisation n'a rien a. payer pour le moment. Le PRESIDENT (traduit de ['anglais): Permet- tez-moi de faire quelques observations sur les declarations des representants de la RSS d'Ukraine et de I'Argentine.

Perhaps I might say a word of comment on what has been said by the representative of the Ukrainian SSR and the representative of Argentina. I hope that no member of the ~ouncil will succumb to the temptation to use this· particular point on our agenda as a pretext for indulging in a wide-ranging political discussion of the situation in Indonesia in general. 'When he dealt with the particular item under discussion, the representative of the Ukrainian SSR referred to this body as an artifiicially created organ. I do not think it is necessary to go into the past history of the creation of this organ. I would only observe, however, that these observers whom we are now discussing have been taken over by the United Nations Commission, and they are serving the United Nations. Now I know that the representative of the Ukrainian SSR thinks that it would be very wrong that the United Nations should bear any cost of that kind. He spoke, in regard to an earlier item of today's agenda, of these "honorary" functions-at least I think it was the representative of the Ukrainian SSR who did so. They are honourable functions, but they are also very onerous and very important and responsible and difficult-and sometimes even dangerous. In any case, the expenses of observers placed, as are these officers, under the instructions and command of a United Nations organ, should not, it seems to me, be paid by their own Government; such payment should come from the funds of the United Nations. J'espere qu'aucun des membres du Conseil ne succombera a la tentation de saisir l'occasion de l'examende ce point de l'ordre du jour pour se lancer dans un discours politique de grande envergure sur la situation en Indonesie en general. Moreover, I am informed that there are funds .that could be so used, if the Council were disposed to decide that these expenses should be met in this way. r would, incidentally, draw the attention of the Council to the fact, already referred to, I think, that it is only future costs that are in question. The representative of the Ukrainian SSR spoke as if this were a pretext for obtaining payment by the United Nations of part of the cost of our consula.r personnel. Well, of course, that is not the case at all. All these observers are entirely outside what would normally be the· staffs of our Parlant du point a l'etude, le repr~sentant de la RSS d'Ukraine a declare que 1'0rganisme dont il est question n'avait qu'une existence artificielle. Je ne crois pas qu'il soit necessaire de faire l'historique de sa creation. Je ferai seulement remarquer que les observateurs dont nous parlons ont ete transferes a la Commission des Nations Unies et servent I'Organisation des Nations Unies. Toutefois, je sais que le representant de la RSS d'Ukraine est d'avis que l'Organisation des Nations Unies aurait tort d'assumer des frais cle cette sorte. Lors de l'examen d'un point precedent de 1'0rdre clu jour de la presente seance, it a qualifie les fonctions d'observateurs de fonctions "honorifiques" - du moins je crois ne pas me tromper en attribuant ces paroles au representant de laRSS cl'Ukraine. Les fonctions des observateurs sont des fonctions qui font honneur, certes, a ceux qui ·les exercent, mais elles sont egalement tres· penibles· et tres importantes, elles comportent des responsabilites et parfois meme presentent des dangers. En tous cas, les depenses des observateurs qui, comme ceux-ci, sont mis a la disposition cl'un organisme des Nations Unies et obeissent ases instructions, ne doivent pasetre payees, il me semble, par leur propre gouvernement; les frais. devraient ~re assumes ,par Irganisation des Nations Unies. En outre, j'ai appris qu'il existe des fonds qui pourraient etre utilises pour couvrir les depenses de cet ordre si le Conseil decidait que les frais encourus dussent etre couverts de cette f.ar;on. . D'itutre part, j'attire l'attention du Conseil sur un fait qui a deja. ete mentionne, a savoir qu'il ne s'agit que de depenses a supporter dans l'ave'" nir. Le representant de la RSS d'Ukraine .a laisse entendre que nouscherchions un pretexte pour faire payer par l'Organisation des Nations Unies une partie des frais afferents a notre personnel consulaire. Ce n'est naturellement pas le cas. Tous ces observateurs ne font a:bsolument pas partie de notre personnel •consulaire .regulier; oous ne les avons designes que dans le desir et l'espoir The represent&tive of Argentina asked, I think, what these observers were going to do, wheth~r they could not be removed and whether, therefore, there would be any expenses in the future. As I have just explained, I think there are continuing duties and that the observers will have to stay there for some time. In view of the capacity in which the observers serve, it seems to me personally-and I am speaking now as representative of the UNITED KING- DOM delegation-suitable that those expenses should be borne by the United Nations. Mr. MANUILSKY (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) (translated from Russian): I have' listened attentively to the President's remarks, but they have raised some doubts in my mind. The fact is that military operations did take place in Indonesia, and there were apparently military observers there. Who bore the expense of those military observers? I presume, as we have no documents €In this matter, that,up to now the expenses have been borne by the States which sent these observers. That seems to be'ho".'r matters stand. States which sent their observers bore the expenses. However, now that military activities are coming to an end and a round table conference is being held, it is proposed to setup a fresh group of military observers. I shall suggest· another possibility since, I repeat, we have no documents on this matter. While military operations were in progress, there were no military observers. This may all have been for the best, as military observers often make matters worse. We know this from experience. But there are now even less grounds for raising the question of the creation of a corps of military observers, since it is -affirmed that a round table conference is being held, and that the Indonesian question is on the way to a satisfactory settlement. For these reas~ns it seems to me to be quite illogical to decide now on the question of·the future payment of Iililitary observers.

In brief reply to the representative of the Ukrainian SSR, I wish to say only that the observers up to the present have been paid by their respective Governments. That is what T think is perhaps not quite right. There is no question before the Security Council this afternoon, of creating military observers, as the representative of the Ukrainian SSR put it. These military observers are required iUld.employed by the United Nations Commission, which still requires their presence for certain plac~ pendant un certain temps. Vu les fonctions que les observateurs exercent j'estime personneUement - et je parle maintenant en qualite de representant du ROYAUME-UNI _ qu'it conviendrait que les Nations Unies en assument les frais. M. MANUILSKY (Republique socialiste sovietique d'Ukraine) (trad1tit dzt russe): J'ai ecoute attentivement les observations que vient de faire le President, j'ai certains doutes a. cet egard. Des operations militaires ont eu lieu en lndonesie, et des observateurs militaires y ont appa- -remment assiste. Qui a subvenu a. leurs frais? Je presume, car nous n'avons aucun document a ce sujet, que jusqu'a. present ces depenses ont ete couvertes par ceux qui avaient envoye ces observateurs.C'est ainsi" me semble-toil, que se presente la question. Les Etats qui avaient envoye des observateurs militaires en lndonesie ont pris a leur charge les depenses qui en resultaient. Or, maintenant que les operations militaires promettent de prendre fin et qu'une conference de la table ronde a ete convoqu'6e, on propose au Conseil de designer, a. nouveau, des observateurs militaires. Envisageons maintenant une autre hypothese, une autre 'eventualite, car, je le repete, n011S n'avons aucun document a. ce sujet. Des operations militaires ont eu lieu, mais aucun observateur miIitaire·n'y a assiste. C'etait peut-etre ttne bonne chose, car l'experience montre que les observateurs ne font souvent qu'aggraver la situation. Mais alors, il est encore moins justifie de demander la nomination d'observateurs militaires, puisqu'on vient d'affirmer ici qu'une conference de la table ronde est en train de deliberer et que l'ensemble de la question indonesienne va bientot .recevoir une solution satisfaisante. Pour toutes ces raisons, il me semble parfaitement i110gique de vouloir regler des maintenant la question de la retribution des observateursmiIitaires qui pourraient etre designes a l'avenir. Le PRESIDENT (tradwit de l'anglais): Pour repondre brU~vement au representant de la RSS d'Ukraine, je decIarerai simplement que les observateurs ont ete retribues jusqu'a. present par leurs gouvernements respectifs. C'est ce1a qui, a mon avis, n'est pas tout a fait juste. I1 n'est pas question id, cet ap~es-midi, comme le. representant de la RSS d'Ukraine semble vou- 10ir le faire croire, de creer ungrotlpe d'obsetvateurs militaires. Les observateurs 'nilitaires en question ont ete demandes et sont emp10yes par la Commission des Nations Unies qui a encore .t4 M. TSARAPKINE (Union des RepubIiques socialistes sovietiques) (traduit du russe): Puisqu'il s'agit de depenses que l'Organisation des Nations Unies devra couvrir it l'avenir, je vou$irais - tout en m'abstenant de me prononcer sur la question quant au fond - qu'on nous foumisse tout d'abord des renseignements sur le nombre des observateurs qui se trouvent dans ce pays, sur les Etats qui les ont envoyes et sur le montant de ces depenses, bien que ce montant n'ait pas une grande importance pour le moment. Mr. TSARAPKIN (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) (translated from Russian) : Since we are dealing with future expenses to be assumed by the United Nations, I would ask-leaving aside for the moment the substance of the question -that we be given some preliminary information regarding the number of observers who are in that country, regarding which Governments sent them, and regarding the expenditures involved, although the amount is of no very great consequence for the moment.

In reply to the representative of the USSR, I wish to say that I have inquired of the Secretariat, and have been informed that the information can be provided within about five minutes. While that information is being obtained, perhaps ot.'J.er members of the Council would wish to speak further on this question. Le PRESIDENT (trad~tit de l'anglais): En reponse an representant de l'URSS, je desire signaler que j'ai demande ces renseignements au Secretariat qui nous les procurera dans quelque cinq minutes. Pendant que nous les attendons, l'un des merilbres du ConseiI desire-t-il prendre la parole sur cette question? M. MANUILSKY (Republique socialiste sovie-' tique d'Ukraine) (traduit du russe): Je peux fournir certains renseigriements sur ce point. Mais je suis fort etonne de voir qU'OTI laisse le Conseil sans informations sur le nombre des observateurs, etc., alors qu'il s'agit d'autoriser des depenses. Cette maniere de proceder permet d'engager tout le personnel qu'on veut, qu'il soit utile ou non. Voila pourquoi je suis parfaitement fonde a parIer du systeme des sinecures qui,. malheureusement, devient de plus en plus frequent a l'Organisation des Nations Unies. Void la liste des Etats qui ont des observateurs : Etats-Unis, Royaume-Uni, France, Be1gique et Australie. Comment les choses se sont-eIIes passees jusqu'a present? Ces observateurs ont ete envoyes par leurs gouvernements respectifs.Maintenant, . on veut qu'ils 'soient retribues par d'autres Etats. Je ne sais pas ce qu'en pense M. Austin, mais il me semble parfaitement injuste que de petits Etats et des Etats moyens soient charges de retribuer des observateurs americains. Les Etats-Unis sont un pays riche et ils disposent des moyens necessaires. Je ne comprends pas qu'on puisse demander aux pays te1s que la RSS d'Ukraine, la RSS de Bielorussie, le Liban, l'El;jPte, Cuba,. Costa-Rica et d'autres petits Etats, qu'ils couvrent les depenses des Etats-Unis, du Royaume- Uni et de la France. M. Austin reconnaitra ceitainement que, meme dans son propre pays, cette fa<;;on de proceder ne serait pas tres bien accueiIlie. L'opinion pubIique des Etats-Unis doit comprendre que c'esta l'Etat meme qui a envoye des observateurs qu'incombe le soin de les retribuer. Aussi, me semble-t-il que l'assertion du President, qui a dit quecette methode etait anormale et 'que dorenavant ces frais devraient etre couverts par d'autres pays, ne resiste pas a la critique. Puisque cette question a ete soulevee, il faut prendrela peine de.l'examiner anotiveau. Je suis convaincu que le representant de l'Argen.:. tine - qui n'approuve pas, bien entendu, les arguments politiques que j'ai fait valoir - et leg representants des autres pe~ts pays, dans leut fort interieur, sont de mon avis etpensent comme moi qu'il faut reconsiderer cette question. Puisqu'on insiste sur ce point, il faut fixer le nombre Mr. MANUILSKY (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) (translated from R~tssian): I can give some information on this point. However, I can only express surprise at the fact that, although we are discussing the expenditure of funds, we have not been supplied with any information on the number of observers, and so forth. This makes it possible to engage any number of staff, whether they are needed or not. This is why I speak .advisedly of the sinecure system which is at present unfortunately taking root in the United Nations. . The States which have observers are the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Belgium and Australia. The position up to the present has been that these military observers were sent by their Governments, and now ,it is being suggested that other countries should'pay for them. I do not know Mr. Austin's views on this matter, but I feel that it would be most unfair to ask the smaller and medium-sized countries to pay for United States observers. The United States is a wealthy country and has sufficient ~eans at its disposal. It would be strange indeed If countries such as the Ukrainian SSR, the Byelorussi~ SSR, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Cuba, Costa Rica and other small States were to pay the expenses of the United States, the United Kingdom and France. I think Mr. Austin will, ~gree that. such a s.ugg~stiQn would not be very well receIved even m hIS country. I assume that public opinion in the United States must understand that where observers a"e concerned, the expense should be borne by the States which send them. I feel, therefore, that the President's assertion that that was an abnormal practice, and that o~ers should now· pay for the observers, cannot wI~hstand criticism. If this question is now being raIsed, we must consider it anew. I am convinced that the representative of Argentina-who, of course, does not agree with the political arguments I have advanced-as well as the representatives of several other smaller States, agree at heart with my view that the. question should be reconsidered. Since there is insistence on the point, the number of' observers and. the total costs involved should· be determined. Then the h I would therefore ask the President to have this question reconsidered, bearing in mind the remarks which have been made here.

In reply to questions 'that have been put, I can confirm the information which the representative of the Ukrainian SSR has already given us, and I can supple.tnent it. As he said quite correctly, the observers are drawn from France, the United Kingdom, the United States, Belgium and Australia. I am informed that their total number varies between thirty·· eight and fifty-five. They are paid their travelling expenses incurred in going to. Indonesia and will receive travelling expenses when their duties are finished 'and they leave Indonesia. While they are there, they receive a daily allowance. Basing an estimate on those numbers and on that arrange-, ment about allowances, it is estimated that the cost until the end of this year would amount to 90,000 dollars. I hope that that information may perhaps enable us to reach a decision on this point at our meeting this afternoon. Mr. AUSTIN (United States of America) : The introduction of class prejudice here reminds me of something that happened in my dear little State of Vermont in the old days when we used to have political candidates chosen by great con:- velJ.tions. They would all get'together in a convention and pick their candidate for public office after a debate. My home city of Burlington, the largest in the State, has a population of around 30,000 people: some of the buildings in New York City contain more population than my city. But then you drop to cities of less population, and finally to beautiful little hamlets and villages scattered around the mountains and valleys and along the shining rivers of Vermont. Hyde Park, Vermont, a small town, once had a candidate against the candidate from the city of Burlingtori, and he was a brilliant lawyer like my friend, Mr. Manuilsky. He got up in this' corivention and said: "If you stand a silver dollar up on its edge on top of Mount Mansfield, where will it r.oIrto? Why, it will roll right down into the city of Burlington." That prejudice of the small against the great and of the poor against the rich is often used to confuse, to divert and to smother discussion when the claimant in an issue does not have anything else on which to stand. There are two premises here that the representative of the Ukrainian SSR has used, and these two premises are entirely false. . Le PRESIDENT (tradttit de l'anglais): En reponse aux questions posees, je confirme les renseignements que le representant de la RSS d'Ukraine nous a donnes et je peux les completer. Comme ill'a dit fort exactement, les observc:teurs sont detaches par les Gouvernements de la France, du Royaume-Uni, des Etats-Unis, de la Belgique et de l'Australie. L'on m'a informe que leur nombre total variait entre trente-huit et dnquante-cinq. Le voyage en Indonesie leur est paye et leurs frais de deplacement leur seront egalement rembourses lorsque leurs fonctions seront terminees et qu'ils quitteront l'Indonesie. Pendant leur sejour dans ce pays, ils re<;oivent une indemnite journaliere. On estime, en se basant sur leur nombre et les dispositions prises en matiere d'indemnite, que les depenses s'eleveront a 90.000 dollars jusqu'a la fin de l'annee. J'espere que ces renseignements permettront aux mel1lbres du Conseil de prendre cet apres-midi une decision. M. AUSTIN (Etats-Unis d'Amerique) (traduit de l'anglais) : En introduisant dans la discussion la question de prejuge de classe, on me rappelle un incident survenu jadis dans mon petit Etat du Vermont, alors qu'il etait d'usage de choisir nos candidats politiques au cours deces reunions que nous appelons conventions. On se reunissait done pour choisir, apres de .longs debats, les divers candidats aux fonctions publiques. Burlington, ma ville natale, est la plus grande de cet Etat, bien qu'elle ne compte guere que 30.000 habitants (moinsque certains des grands iml1leubles de New-York). Apres Burlington, il n'ya plus, d::l.DS le Vermont, que de petites villes moins peuplees, de ravissants petits hameaux et villages epars da-ns les montagnes, dans les vallees et le long des rivieres aux eaux limpides. Or, le petit village de Hyde Park, dans le Ver~ont, avait un jour presente un candidat contre le candidat de la ville de Burlington. Ce candidatetait un brillant avocat comme mon ami M. Manuilsky, et, au cours de la reunion, il se leva pour faire cette seule remarque: "Si l'on posait une piece d'un dollar en argent au sommet du'mont Mansfield, dans quelle direction roulerait ce dollar? Eh bien, il roulerait naturellement vel'S la ville de Burlington". Tres souvent, on invoque ainsi les differences o,ui separ~nt les petits des grands, les pauvres des riches, pour confondre ses adversaires, arreter et detourner la discussion lorsqu'on ne peut de£endre sa these par aucun argument. Le represfmtant de la RSS d'Ukraine a tire ses conclusions de deuxpremisses qui sont' fausses, entierel1lent fausses. ' These officials are employed by; the United Nations. These military observers are United Nations military observers while they are in the service of the United Nations. They are not the military observers of these countries that have been good enough to furnish what the United Nations itself did not furnish. The United Nations has adopted that service and, so far, it has had it without compensation, without even paying expenses. Now then, what about this prejudice which we hear voiced occasionally? The fact is that the United States pays 39.89 per cent of whatever expenditures the United Nations votes to be paid. If this proposal contained in the President's letter were accepted, and if by 30 September no written objection were made, this item would be referred to the Secretary-General, who would act under the authorization I have just quoted, It would not go to the Advisory Committee, and the largest share of the burden would fall on the United States. Therefore, taking this matter in its true light, which reveals that the United States has been p~y:ing the whole of the expenses of whatever mIlitary observers it has contributed to this service for the United Nations, and that the United Nations itself -would pay suth expenses in the future, it is a false premise to assume that the smaller Members of the United Nations would be bearing anywhere near the burden that the United States is bearing. That applies, in a lesser degree, to every other one of the five permanent members of the Security Council. Therefore, a~suming that we are willing ,to entertain prejudl~e in this matter, it does not really apply to ~his situation. There is no complaint, and there IS no reason for complaint on the part of the so-called smaller countries. Representing the United States, I favour the President's proposal, and if the question is to be settled on the basis of his letter, I support it. t~ber, and from which countries they came. How many observers were sent from France, from the United Kingdom, from the United States, from Belgium,' from· Australia? This is all the more important because I stated at the beginning that the cost might be small, and that it was therefore of little consequence. It appears, however, that it is not one hundred thousand dollars that we .are to pay to military observers who have not been paid for two years. The war in Indonesia has lasted two years and the United Nations has 'not paid the observers. But . npw that an armistice has been concluded and that we hear rumours from. Th~ Hague that matters are proceeding smoothly, that everything will be settled.and calmed, and that a stlccessfu.l solution will be reached,the question of the payment of observers is brought up. " Are the military operations in question, then, related to a plan already established? One cannot avoid the impressiol" that the Consular Commission in Batavia-consisting of the consuls of France, the United Kingdom, the United States, Belgium and Australia-are expecting or plan:" ning military operations in Indonesia... If not, why is the·question of the payment of military ogservers in Indonesia by the United Nations in the future-please note: in the future-being raised? That is not a simple, technical question, but a question of substance. I should like to warn the President that when the question is· discussed we shall have to go into its substance in some detail, as future payments to military observers are involved. Either the information we have received as to the cessation of military activities, the approach of peace and the settlement of the question, is incorrect, or the information ,is correct,but someone is preparing to launch new military activity in Indonesia. That side of the picture needs to be clarified. We should further like to obtain specific information as to the military observers who are now there. What are they doing at present? What are their duties? I should like to know where they are operating and from what countries they come: in other words, how many are from France, the United Kingdom, the United States, Belgium and Australia. That information is necessary before we can proceed with the discussion of the question. Les operations militaires en question feraientelles done l'objet d'un plan etabli d'avance? L'on ne peut s'empecher de penser que la Commission consulaire de Batavia - qui se compose des consuls de France, du Royaume-Uni, des Etats- Unis, de Belgique et d'Australie - prevoit 011 prepare meme les operations militaires en Indonesie. Il est impossible de s'expliqtter autrement cette demande, selon laquelle les observateurs militaires envoyes dans ce pays devraient etre retribues a l'avenir -notez-le bien: a l'avenir - par l'Organisation des Nations Unies. Cen'est pas d'une simple question technique, mais bien d'une question de fond qu'il· s'agit la. Je dais prevenir lePtesident qu'en examinant ce probleme, le Conseit de securite devra proceder a .une discussion de fond assez detaillee. Il s'agit en effet de la retribution des observateurs militaires a l'avenjr. Ou bien les informations qui ont ete fournies au Conseil au sujet .de la cessation des hostilites, du tetablissement imminent de la paix et du reglement de cette question,' sont inexactes; ou bien eUes sont exactes, mais quelqu'un est en train de preparer de nouvelles operations mili taires en Indonesie. It faut eclaircir cette question. D'autre part, il serait interessant,d'obtenir de renseignements precis au sujet des observateur qui se trouvent acttiellement sur les lieux. Qu font-its en ce moment? QueUes sont leur fonctions? Il faudrait savoir ou its se trouven exactement et quels sont les pays qui les on envoyes, en d'autres termes, it faut etabli combien d'observateurs viennent de France combien d'entre eux ont ete designes par I Royaume-Uni; combien; par les Etats-Unis combien,par la Belgique; et combien, par I'Aus tralie. 11 est indispensable d'avoir tous ces rensei gnements pour poursuivre l'examen de cett question. Actually, in the month of July-I a.m afraid that we do not yet have the August figuresthe observers were distributed by nationality as follows: fourteen from Australia, four from Belgium, fifteen from the United States, three from France,andfour from the United Kingdom, making a total of forty. That is the distribution of observers by nationality, although what that really has to do with the question I cannot imagine. Those forty officers are all serving the United Nations; I do not think we need take much regard of the difference in nationality. I do hope that in the light of the discussion that has taken place, and with this further information before us, .we may be able to reach a -decision at this meeting. M. M..o\NUIL~KY (Republique socialiste sovietique d'Ukraine) (trad1dt du russe): Je m'excuse d'avoir a prendre la parole encore une fois sur la meme question. J'avoue que je suis moi-meme fatigue d'en parler. Mais il s'agit la d'une question de principe,' et .on ne saurait la traiter d'une' maniere aussi artistique que l'a fait M. Austi:n qui a parle' de conventions et d'une montagne du - sommet de laquelle roulait un dollar. Je dais repondre a M. Austin qu'ici, il s'agit en realite du dollar quisort de la bourse de l'Organisation des Nations Unies et Qui roule dans celle des Etats-Unis. Toutes ces images pittoresques sont _ done parfaitement deplacees. Les Americains sont des hommes d'affaires, ils comprendront cet argument et en reconnaitront certa.inement la validite. Mr. MANUILSKY (Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic) (translated from Russian): I must apologize for having to speak again on this question. I must state frankly that I myself am tired of speaking about it. But a matter of principle is at stake, and'it cannot be dealt with artistically as did Mr. Austin when he spoke of conventions and of a hill from which a dollar rolled down. In reply, I should like to point out to Mr. Austin that the fact of the matter is that the dollar he referred to comes out of the pocket of the United Nations and goes into that of the United States. All these p!cturesque images are therefore completely beside the point. Since the people of the Unit.ed States are business-minded, they will readtly understand this argument and understand its validity. Let us examine Mr. Austin's arithmetic. He said that the United States bore 39 per cent of the total expense, while the Costa Ricans and others shared only an insignificant part of the expense. We remember the 39 per cent. But when we asked what countries were represented on the Commission, our President could not see what that really had to .do with the question. The answer is that the question has to do with . arithmetic. For instance, there are -fourteen Voyons maintenant les exercicesd'arithmetique auxquels s'est livre ici M. Austin. I1 a dit a peu jires que les Etats-Uniscouvraient 39 pour 100 de ~{)utes les depenses, alors que des pays comme ~ Costa-Rica, par exemple, ne subvenaient qu'a une partie insignifiante des frais. Notons bien ces 39 pour 100, car lorsque nous avans demande que1s etaient les Etats representes a la commission, le President du Conseil a dit que cela n'avait aucun rapport avec la question. Quant a moi, je pense que cette question peut avoir une certaine influence sur les calculs qu'on fait. C'est ai:nsi qu'il y a quatorze observateurs australiens et quatorze americains; en d'autres termes, deux tiers, ou meme 75 pour 100, de ces observateurs viennentdes Etats-Unis ou d'.L\ustralie, alors que les autres Etats n'en ant envoye que 25 pour 100. Pourquoi done, etant donne cette proportion, demande-t-on aux Etats qui ne sont pas repre':' sentes de participer aux frais? Je suis sur que M. Austin comprend ce que je veux dire. Le Conseil de securite comprend onze membres. Comment se fait-il que les Etats-Unis et le ~ustralian and fourteen United States observers; 1U other words, two-thirds or even 75 per cent o£the observers are made up of representatives of the United States and Australia, and only 25 per cent come from other States. Why then, the distribution being what it is, should other States which are not represented have to defray those costs? Mr. Austin, I am sure, will understand what I mean. There are eleven members of' the Security Council. Why . . have the United States .and the United Kingdom .",,-_-...~- Let us rather defer the matter until the composition of the Security Council has been changed; once the new members are in office, it might be easier for the Council to settle this question and to find a solution.

I should not be quite in favour of adjourning this question until January next, as proposed by the representative of the Ukrainian SSR. However, I do think that we are not in a mood to take a decision this afternoon. We might perhaps adjourn the meeting, in view of the fact that the hour is rather advanced. I had hoped that we might have been able to take a decision today, as I had addressed a letter to the members of the Security Council on 22 September, arid I thought that, had any difficulties presented themselves, the members might have let us know before this meeting and we might have been able to obtain all the information they required and have had it ready for them. If the Security Council agrees to adjourn. now, I think it will probably not be able to meet again for several days. However that will be for my successor to decide. Mr. AUSTIN (United States of America): If the President will permit an interruption at this point, 1 should like to say that I am informed by the Secretariat that a meeting of the Security Council could be held on Tuesday next, 4 October. If that is so, I should be hc1ined to call such a meeting.

That gives the members of the SecuriPJ Council until next Tuesday to think up further objections or to call for such further information as they require. I am. sure that the Secretariat, or anyone else concerned, would. do everything possible to meet such requirements so that we may come to the next meeting prepared to take. an early decision on.this question, and thus be ableto move forward to the more important work which lies before us. ~ncore on m'offrait une compensation, j'y reflechirais peut-etre. Voila pourquoi il me semble qu'il n'y a pas lieu de se hater pour regler cette question. S'il y a decision, je voterai contre. Mais est-il desirable que la delegation de la RSS d'Ukraine pose cl la Cinquieme Commission toutes les questions qui viennent d't:tre debattues, lui soumette tous ces chiffres et dise que, jusqu'a present, ce sont les Etats-Unis qui ont subvenu aux frais mais que maintenant, les Etats-Unis et le Royaume-UnI desirent que ce soient les petites nations qui les prennent a leur charge? On verra se produire alors a ce sujet a la Cinquieme Commission de te1les frictions, de tels debats que le travail de cette commission s'en trouvera retarde. Je propose done d'ajourner la discussion de cette question jusqu'a ce que les nouveaux membres du Conseil de securite soient entres en fonction. Il se peut qu'apres ce remaniement, it soit plus facile au Conseil de trancher cette question et de trouver une solution. Le PRESIDENT (tradu£t de l'anglai.s): Je ne suis pas tres partisan de remettre l'examen de cette question jusqu'en janvier prochain, comme le propose le representant de la RSS d'Ukraine. D'autre part, i1 ne me semble pas que noc soyons disposes aprendre une decision cet apres-midi, et, en raison de l'heure tardive, nous pourrions peutetre lever la seance. J'esperais que nous amions pu prendre une decision aujourd'hui, etant donne que j'avais adresse ma lettre aux membres du Conseil de securite le 22 septembre. Je peusais que, si des difficultes quelconqnes se presentaient, les membres en auraient informe le Conseil avant la seance' et nous aurions pu obtenir taus Ies renseignements qu'ils demandaient et les mettre a leur disposition. Si le Conseil de securite desire s'ajourner mainteriant, iI ne lui sera vraisemblablement pas possible de se reunir avant plusieurs jours. C'est toutefois a mon successeur qu'il appartient de prendre une d~cision. M. AUSTIN (Etats-Unis d'Amerique) (traduit de l'anglais): Je me permets d'interrompre .le President pour signaler que le SecretarIat m'informe que le Conseil pourra se reunir mara! prochain 4 octobre. Dans ce cas, je serais dispose a convoquer une seance pour ce jour-la. .Le PRESIDENT (traduit de l'anglais): Les membres du Conseil de securite auront done·' jusqu'a mardi prochain pour reflechir a d'autres objections et pour demander des renseigneme~ts complementaires. Je suis certain que le Secreta~1at 'et tous les interesses feront tout leur poss1ble po~r que nousl'lUissions,· a la prochaine seance, prendre rapidement une decisioll SUI .. cette, question et passer. ensuite .aux Pfublemes plUS iinportants dont nous sommes saisis. FRANCe Editions A. Pedone 13, rue Souffi.ot PAlUS. Ve GREECE-GRECE "Eleftheroudakis" Librairie intemationale Place de la Constitution ATHENES GUATEMALA Jose Goubaud Goubaud & Cia. Ltda. Sucesor Sa Av. Sur No. 6 y 9a C. P. 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